Aww, poor fella, it sounds as if you are doing a great job with him and he is clearly looking to you for leadership and friendship. I'm wondering why he has to be on his own though? He needs to be with other horses, and being with other horses that he sees being confident around you will give him confidence too but you need to be in an enclosed space to begin getting him used to being led and handled so that he can't just keep backing away, he needs to learn pressure and release. Kelly Marks does a little book called handling the untouched horse that will give you the basics. What part of the world are you in? If you are in the UK Kelly Marks via Intelligent Horsemanship runs a two day course on handling untouched horses. You are right to just be patient and let him find you. Good luck, looking forward to hearing how you get on. I'm sure you will get lots of support from others on here too.

Thank you so much for your response and encouragement. He was in with other horses until 2 weeks ago as the owner said she wanted to start work with him but all that's happened so far was her attaching the lead and him freaking out so it was just left hanging until I took it off him.
I am in Scotland and will certainly get hold of Kelly's book.

Would you suggest a join up before even trying to attach any kind of lead rope to him, he's in a high fenced field?

Thanks.

Its really nice of you to help this poor guy
I hope you will get alot of answers and guidance here from the more experienced people.

It seems to me your doing the right thing here for starters.
You will need to earn his trust, he has been handled poorly by man in his life and trusts noone now.
Im sure if you stay calm and have a lot of patience when your around him he will loosen up. Just being there on the field without demanding things he cant handle will alot.
Good luck, i hope you will be able to help him.

Hi. Horses should not be kept solitary - people go a bit batty kept that way & horses too. Hopefully, this one can still see & hear his friends but he will be stressed as he can never relax as he has no guard horse; one to keep watch while he rolls or sleeps. Solitary is a great way to make a nervous horse worse. If there are great problems catching him in company try & get the owner to agree to one other with him. This should be an older gelding, well schooled who can not only be his companion but his mentor! When he sees his friend going happily to the human, being quietly handled without any negative consequences he will want to join in. I have a two month old filly foal and a trailer with a big hay bale in it. Actually, I have a small herd. I watched the filly learning to go in the trailer, being taught that it was a pleasant place to be, by her gelded father and brother! Now that's real equine cooperation. Intelligent Horsemanship contact number is 0148871300. I'm just west of Edinburgh & will offer you any help I can. Remember, the 2nd most important thing is that you have fun. So what is the MOST important thing? That the horses have fun! Keep in touch. Jo

Hi Mary - I would not recommend that you try doing Join Up in the field with an untouched horse. You need to be really fluid and confident in Join UP to do it with an untouched and you need to set yourself up for success not make it more difficult that it needs to be :-) I would say however that he is semit-handled rather than completely untouched but paradoxically this can make it worse because it depends on his experiences of being 'touched' before. I would get him into a smaller space, get a halter on if he is ok with that. Get a LONG lead rope so that he never runs to the end of it and snatches it away from you and just apply the lightest bit of pressure - he will react at first as his instinct is to go into pressure but if you time your releases really really well he will learn that as soon as he comes off the pressure he finds the comfort. If you try to do this in an open space he can just keep panicking and backing away from you. I strongly recommend getting Kelly's book because the pictures explain it far better than I can in words. I would also suggest you practice on a quieter horse with a Dually so that you really understand the pressure/release. Good luck, I have every confidence that you will win him over :-)

Thank you so much for the amazing responses!
I wish he was mine so I could put him where I like, he is next to a pony and can see the other horses but it's his own small field, I noticed the last time I was up he has no shelter in his field, he's lived out for 4 yr, winters inc, with nothing on him! I don't want to overstep the mark with his owner, she's a lovely woman but the more time I spend up there, the more things I see wrong like the crap lying about in the fields (I picked up a saw which had been left inside a gate with 4 horses in the field). I think the owner just does not have the time or doesn't care.
There are a lot of large stones and rocks in a couple of the fields with the odd bit of broken wood fence on the ground, to me this seems very dangerous but having never owned a horse myself, I'm very unsure of what's okay and what's not, I can only go by the stables I had lessons at years ago and they're were immaculate.
Apologies for going a bit off topic there but I was just trying to give you an idea of what there is to work with, there's only a smallish outdoor school which he'd jump out of no problem, I feel stuck with how to help as there is a severe lack of what is needed after reading the responses and watching Monty's videos.
I am going to hunt down Kelly's book right now which I can then take up with me and maybe hint to his owner that what she's doing is wrong without offending her.
Thank you again for the advice and help, it is much appreciated :)
I am over in Fife myself Jo, thanks for your number, I may give you a call sometime and will keep you's updated here.

Hugs, Mary

Mary, landline number was to get Kelly's book from Intelligent Horsemanship. My email is JoHewittVINTA@hotmail.com

Mary, landline number was to get Kelly's book from Intelligent Horsemanship. My email is JoHewittVINTA@hotmail.com

Thank you Jo, I was looking around the site here for it but couldn't find it, got it from Amazon so it's on the way, obviously would rather have bought from here, sorry for misunderstanding, my, I have my moments, he he!

Yes, well I have senior moments too. No harm there. How far have you got with the Uni? I tend to go through a set and then go back and study it again and again, usually with a large G & T. I have a great relationship with my herd of 5. One mare, one filly foal ( 10 weeks old last Monday ) her big brother now 16 months and their Dad. Also have welsh section A. All boys now gelded - you have to know when to stop no matter how cute the foals are! The boys have already taught the filly to load into the trailer - it has a big bale of hay in it. Now that's real cooperation. Keep in touch; I'll give any help I can. Jo

I've watched quite a bit of the Uni, join up several times and will do so over and over, have watched the wild horses part but they have a gate closure in the video and I can see why.

Have you any suggestions as to how to get a lead rope on him or how to start getting him to lead? He is letting me approach and touch him from both sides now and touch nearly all of him but he's not too keen on the top of his head, He has the head collar on but if I try to even just put my hand on a strap his head goes right up and he backs off.

Your herd sounds lovely, and what great to have a little foal, were you there when she was born? I have read it is great for bonding with the foal if you are there, is this true?

We are having some great weather, I hope you are enjoying your self and your horses.

:)

Build up on the trust. Work with him loose & do not try & catch him - he will come & catch you when he's ready. Work using your eyes lowered & your shoulders at about 45 degrees. That will invite him to you. I'm really saying go slowly. Try grooming him. They usually love that so long as it's rhythmic & gentle but firm. You can win this guy over with lots of patience. Once he really knows you are his friend & greets you as such then you should try join up- but try to practice on an older, quieter & better trained horse first. No, I missed her birth by about an hour. She was already up on her feet at 1.30 am on 12/5. I missed the colt too. No sign of anything at 10pm and all up and walking by 5am. Horses love to be scratched & rubbed. Top of the head is the weakest part of the skull so they tend to be more defensive. Ears are very sensitive too. You can brush your hand over the ears & head, like you made a mistake. Couple of passes a visit & soon there'll be no issue here either. Good luck & keep in touch. Jo

Jo, thanks so much, I've been up the last 2 days, walking around his pen relaxed, he looks for me coming. He let me groom him all over yesterday, his legs, face, everywhere, it felt so good and he needed a good brush, I must have spent an hour brushing him and running my hands all over him including the top of is head and his ears where he is a bit more sensitive about it. He was great today also, I brushed him for a good hour again, rubbing my hands all over him again. He's letting me touch the head collar but if I put any tension on it to walk him with me, the head goes up so I just let go but he's happy to follow me around walking.
I think he's enjoying my company as much as I'm enjoying his, I'm going back up tomorrow to hang out with him again, thanks again Jo, great stuff :D

Enjoyed reading this thread and all the great comments. It is so good of you to help this horse out and I am so pleased you are doing so. You do need to tread carefully re the owner as it would be a pity if she decided to stop you trying to help. If you can it would be really good if you could clean up his field a bit. The old sore a loose wire are certainly should go and if you can I would start picking up as many of the rocks and sticks as you can and make a pile in a corner of the paddock on the side away from the horses. You may then run a few strands of white electric fence tape across the corner which should keep the horse away. Anything lying around on the ground is extremely hazardous to the horse and also to you once you start working with him. The ex race horse I helped re- train was similar to this horse in so far as he had a headstall on but was terrified of people. I used to be able to catch him for the farrier by being very patient keeping eyes down, walking sideways into him very slowly with food bribes - bits of chopped up carrot and liquorice - but the the lady who decided to befriend him started trying to grab him by the halter and spooked him out so much that I couldn't even catch him for the farrier. - one the reasons why I agreed to help her re-train him. As the others have indicated you need a lot of patience with horses like this. Just spending time in his paddock picking up stones and other hazards will help build up his trust. I would also approach him and the walk away before he moves - eyes down and shoulder towards him not front on. You have made good progress so far so don't be in a hurry to attach a lead rope as you will spook him out and you will not be able to hold him without a long lead rope and a dually halter. So be patient just continue to go up to him and rub him down, especially around the head. You may also rub the head stall and gently play with it but DO NOT try to hold it. Just make him aware of it. Must go Dd a bit more later.

Thank you Maggie :D

Was up today and just brushed him, put some fly repellent (they use) on him by just rubbing him down with it on the gloves, once that was done slowly, taking time to touch him in between his eyes (looking at his front legs) then he followed me around a bit. He was great, gave him a feed and spent a good hour picking up all the stones and there was a lot, I just got rid of them out the field altogether and a few bits of wood!!
The owners saying she's going to attach a short lead rope and just leave it (I kind of feel this would be a bad thing and will just set him back) so I said I meant to take a lead rope with me just to show him and rub on him but not attach it, just let him see smell and feel it but she is his owner and knows a lot more than me so I wouldn't dare suggest it being a bad thing, I kind of hope she'll leave it with me? I know everyone has there own ways and she is a lovely woman who has been kind enough to let me hang around him, the last thing I want to do is put her off me but I'm quite worried about this lead rope idea she has, does anyone have any help/thoughts on this please and thank you all for the responses, every one has helped me in some way. xoxoxo

Hi. Many decades ago it was standard practice for horses that were difficult to catch, to attach a long rope with 56lb weight on the end. I very much doubt that would be well viewed by the likes of the SSPCA today. The possibilities for causing serious injury would be high. Even just a head collar opens up opportunities for getting caught up, especially when the weather is warm & horses scratch against fencing/posts etc. Does the owner know about the forum & the help we have been offering? The reason I ask is, if he has a rope on then the tendency will be for people to grab at it. To do that they will be looking at his head. That is the 'go away' signal in Equus. He will likely snatch away & the person will conclude that he is really bad to catch. My suggestion is that you try & engineer for the owner to see the catching videos on the Uni. They are quite funny as Monty only gives a little bit of information to the student & then let's us viewers in on where the common mistakes happen. If this horse belonged to you I would offer to visit but unless the owner agreed to that it could cause bad feeling. Perhaps something you could consider for the future. Cheers, Jo

Yes try to avoid attaching a lead rope and leaving it on as he may get caught up in it which will. Spook him more and it will be unpleasant for him having it hang off him all the time and treading on it. You are doing great and your instincts are good. Keep on spending time with him whenever you can and keep on stroking him on the face if you con and between the years and around his head collar. Be mindful of his head as that can become a powerful weapon if he is inclined to shake it. Once you can gently play with his head collar and stroke him all over with a lead rope then try introducing a second head collar that is easy to fit on and take off. Gradually introduce this to him until you can put it on over the existing one and then take it off again. I do use small pieces of chopped up carrots kept in a bum bag for re-enforcing the reward for good behaviour but note Monty does not approve of this. They do help to fasten up the process of trust and acceptance but you must be careful not to allow your horse to look for them - just pop one out and offer it to him when he has been really good but try to do so when his head is looking straight ahead or turned slightly away from you. Once you have successfully put a second head stall off and on for a few days then try to introduce the dually halter in the same way. If successful with the dually then after a few tries you maybe ready to start with dually training. This is when you will need all those hazards picked up for your safety and that of the horses. Preferably this would be done in a very safe sand arena or round yard but given this is impossible then you will need to do the best you can with the area you have. By this time all your earlier work should mean that this horse does now trust you. For introducing the dually you will need to wear good non slip boots, a helmet , gloves and have a long lead lunge rope. Watch Monty's video on correctly rolling the lunge line first and practice this many times before you are ready to clip it on the training ring of the dually. Keep everything slow when you clip it on and off. Mmmmm I was about to explain the next step but ..... I think if you have got this far then it is time to find an experienced Monty trainer to help out with the first bit of dually work as it does need someone with experience so that you are safe and the horse does not go backwards after all your good work. Especially given you have no suitable safe round yard. Good ,luck with it. Remember slow is good and incremental learning is the way to go. Hopefully the owner will continue to allow you to play with her horse but this is often the awkward part when everything comes unstuck.

If the owner agreed wouldn't it be great to accept Jo's very generous offer? Perfect if you get to the stage of adding a long lead rope to the dually. Apologies, Jo, only read your comment after I posted the long one above - wouldn't have posted it if I had read yours first. Mary have you thought about offering to buy this horse as that would be the best outcome. It is very difficult helping out with someone else's horse and this owner does sound as if she maybe of the older school and hence non accepting of Monty's ways. It is heart breaking to work closely with a horse and build up a strong relationship of caring and love and then be asked to step away. I have been there and I know others on the Uni have also so be aware of that. Could be easier and less heart breaking for you and the horse to step away now.

@Maggie, I have never been in the position to own a horse or I'd snap him up in a minute, I'm very aware of the fact that he won't ever be mine but he could be a great horse for someone, I don't mind helping so at least he won't be stuck up the back on his own, don't get me wrong, I love him already but I know he'll never be mine anyway but as long as I can help him I don't care, it's him that matters but I do get what you're saying, it's pretty heartbreaking for him to be standing in a field all day on his own still! :(

@Jo, I think I may make a small video to email to you and let you see where he's kept and if you could advise anything, I will speak to the owner when I get the chance and just maybe drop in my friend Jo knows more than me and would happily come and have a look with me one day, see what she says :) Thank you, it's a very kind offer and if he was mine I'd have you over asap!

I wasn't up yesterday, went up today and he's managed to break of his head collar she said, I spent a good 2 hours trying to just put it over his head, we got to his ears then he just pulled away, I rewarded him each time as he wouldn't even let me touch his ears and head to start with but he lets me do it with my hands but doesn't want that head collar on so just left him, he had done well and I didn't want to push it and lose his trust.

I asked the owner about him and she's had him since her mare had him out in the field, she said he has always been a flight horse (em, they are flight animals, lol) since he was born out there and the bigger he got the stronger he got, hence the situation now. She does know I'm on the uni but not that I'm talking about the horse here, she said last week she doesn't even think Monty could do anything with him, I was so shocked, I said I beg to differ, I think he could have a lot done in 30 mins compared to her 4 years she's had him! I think she may go the more dominance way when training a horse than the Monty way, I'm no expert but it's clear which one is best.

Any advice on getting the head collar on, I've rubbed and touched him with it today but he wouldn't let me touch his ears with it, I'll watch what I can tonight and tomorrow and I asked her to just leave it off in the meantime, so I can only hope she does, she said herself that she doesn't want to put him back after my work with him so far so I think that's a good thing.

Thanks for reading and helping :D

Hi. If owner agrees I will happily come. Send video to JoHewittVINTA@hotmail.com - will look forward to it. Bella had filly in the field on 12.05.14. I still can't get a foalslip on, well nearly. But I can catch her with a broad strap round her neck, touch any part of her body and albeit briefly pick up her feet. That's 11 weeks & yes she is all pony. I took a small groundsheet in the field yesterday, to collect cut weeds. Laid it out on the ground. The 16 month colt immediately walked on it. His little sister was a bit more wary but came over, pawed at it some & then she too walked on it. When I had collected a pile of weeds (docks) I started to drag them over to the fence. Filly foal bolted to her mum! Nothing wrong with her flight responses. The child whose Mother spends time teaching them from birth does better at school than the child who has had little mental stimulation. I believe foals mature into better partners if they interact with humans from the start. However, the mare is the critical element. If she is calm & happy with the human involvement with the foal then great. If it worries the mare then it will probably cause more problems. We need a generation of calm & happy mares to breed to prove this. I invite you to come & visit me & mine. I applauded your attitude towards this horse. He needs a human to freely give. He has been very lucky in that respect. Cheers Jo.

That is great to read, Jo. Do hope all works out for you and Mary re this horse. Continue doing what you are doing Mary. Don't be in a hurry to get the head stall back on as he is better off without it any way. Just keep on taking it with you and rubbing him down with it especially around the head and ears until you have Jo's advice and help. Inspiring - all the best to you both.

Thank you Maggie and Jo, sorry I've not written for a few days (bad family news) I have taken a little video of his pen which I'm going to email to you Jo so you can advise but I don't think it's workable, I think it would be dangerous but you'll see for yourself.

I would love you to come over and have a look, I will speak to the owner, I don't see why it would be a problem, she's just left him to me I think which is fine as I am enjoying learning about all the ground work that goes in. I could do a join up with my friends horse but I'm not even sure if the small outdoor school is safe as the fence isn't very high at all, I'll make a video today of the little school and then send them both to you so you can advise and see what we're working with!

Jo, if it's okay with you, I was just going to tell the owner that I have a friend in Edinburgh who'd love to see Apollo, as to not put her off and have her think anything bad so I'm really hoping she'll be okay with it. I would love to come and see your lovely herd and see you interact with your young ones, thanks for all the help and kindness you have shown me, also everyone else who's responded and Maggie if you weren't so far away...well you know, lol. :D

Hi. Now you have really got my attention. You'll know Montys real best friend was Johnny Tivio. Well mine was Apollo Le Sheik. No email yet - you may need to send all in lower case. Take care. Jo

Hi Jo, god, I'm hopeless with these new phones, thought I'dbe able to email it to you but my partner says it's not working because the file is too big, he's doing something on the computer with it to try and reduce it so I can email to you, hopefully soon, I've did a quick one of his pen/field (note the no grass, just weeds) and a little one of the outdoor school where I'd like to do a join up with my friends horse but not sure how safe the fencing is and if the height is okay to do it with my friends horse?
Will get it sent to you asap, again, thank you and what a coincidence with the name :D
Hope you are good xoxoxo

Okay, I've sent them to your email in the small letters, and downsized,sending failed?? I will get it sorted xx

Do you have another email address Jo?

Sorry your having trouble. Only one email address. Try it with the capitals ( VINTA is violence is never the answer ). Three guesses where that came from! I can't do things like that from my phone either. Don't worry - I'll see it all when I visit. Then we'll just need to do the best we can with what we have.

Hi Mary, just saying hello, you'll get amazing advice from the guys n gals in the Uni.
Hi everyone :D
Mel
x

I got your email Jo, beautiful picture :) I have managed to hopefully send you a pic of Apollo! I so look forward to meeting you :)

Hi Mel, hello, and yes, I have had excellent advice.:D

@Maggie " Mary have you thought about offering to buy this horse as that would be the best outcome. It is very difficult helping out with someone else's horse and this owner does sound as if she maybe of the older school and hence non accepting of Monty's ways. It is heart breaking to work closely with a horse and build up a strong relationship of caring and love and then be asked to step away."

Yep, I've never owned a horse but am tempted to ask what kind of price she would sell him for, the owner said she doesn't think Monty could do anything with him, lmao, he isn't that bad, but sounds like she's giving or gave up on him and she is of the older ways of training, I don't know much but from what she's said it's not non violence but neither is it cruelty or whipping, more a battle of wills as she would say where I find the patience and trust works far better, maybe I should even ask about him on loan?? It would hurt to r work with him then lose him once he's trained but it would be more heart breaking to do nothing, I can live with giving him up if it's a better life for him.

:D

It would be wonderful if you could find away of owning him as it maybe heart breaking for you otherwise. Hard to judge the heartbreak and stress of having to part and walk away from a situation like this when you are just starting off and so keen to help. Tread carefully and wait for Jo's assessment before you make any big decisions.

Thank you Maggie, I know exactly what you mean now :( I am quite attached already, will see what Jo says when she comes over, thank you.

:D

He's coming along a bit, I spent about 3 hrs getting a head collar on him today patiently but we got there (the owner wanted it on him so I offered as I had more time than she did) I feel knackered but great and of course he's great!

:D

Great progress mary, slow and steady wins the race ;-)

Hey guys, weather depending I hope to visit on Wednesday next. Then we will know exactly what we are dealing with. I'm hopeful this may be a success story. We'll keep you posted.

Thanks Vicky :D

I have enquired about buying him, kind of scared of taking the plunge never having owned my own horse,if I do buy him I will keep him where he is now as any extra time the owner has she will help as she has trained horses and am also looking forward to us meeting Jo next week who has been so kind offering to come over and the great advice she has given me, I am so thankful and of course to the Uni, I could not put into words how great and valuable it has been to me, also joined intelligent horsemanship which I will also use to my full advantage :D

RIGHT MARY. MONTY IS AT GLENEAGLES ON 01.11.14. You are going to be there - even if I have to come & get you! You've missed the cheaper tickets but get on line to Intelligent Horsemanship & get one. This is an opportunity not to be missed. Cheers, Jo

I got 2 tickets as soon as I heard for me and my friend, no 59 and 60, once my membership comes i can book seats or something and get in earlier with up to 2 guests? My tickets were only £25, :D

Thank you though Jo cause if I hadn't known I wouldn't want to miss it, was thinking of putting Apollo up to see if he would be accepted for assesement, I know I'd have to get him vet checked first.

I am so glad you are also going, this is going to be great!!! xoxoxo

That is so exciting! Both pieces of news . Thinking of owning Apollo plus seeing Monty. Wouldn't it be great if you and Jo could prepare Apollo enough so he could go too. Have fun and take care. Great you got that halter on. Slow and patience is the way to go and it is a fantastic feeling to achieve something you set out to do. Great you don't give in easily but if you must try to make sure you end it in a good spot. Where horses are concerned I tend to be very patient but also determined so refuse to give up even if it takes hours to achieve what I have set out to do - amazes some people. Helps not to aim too high too.

Thanks Maggie, was thinking about trying to get Apollo in, would be a dream, see how things go, even though he has the head collar on, he doesn't like it being touched but I am moving slow and patiently and Jo will see him herself tomorrow, can't wait!!!

:D

Be very careful not to try to hold him by the head stall as that will just freak him out. Just gently touch it then move your hand away again until you can rub around it with your hand. Good luck to morrow with Jo. Looking forward to knowing her assessment of it all. Take care.

Had a great day meeting Jo and taking her to see Apollo today, she was great with him as I expected she would be, great to watch her do some work with him and him responding!! :D

Thank you so much Jo xoxoxo

Thanks Maggie, take care.

So pleased Mary. All the best from now on.

Thanks Maggie :D how's things for you over the other side of the planet?

I'm going up later to buy Apollo, have spoken with his current owner so I'm going to take the plunge (with Jo's help, ha ha) and attempt to get this beautiful boy started. So exciting, I must also add that I love my other half so much for encouraging me to go for it, I love him so much, he is the only man on the planet I have ever loved and trusted!!

Fantastic Mary. That is so exciting for you. Hope everything turns out. Take it slowly and stay safe.

What a lovely day, yesterday. Mary made me lunch & then we drove over to see Apollo. Everything Mary has told us is true. Where he is kept is not ideal, he is sceptical & head shy, with good reason - the owner told me they tied him to a post, wound him up really short in order to microchip & geld him. No wonder he's not keen.
Apollo was in a very small, odd shaped paddock with no grass, a very muddy floor to the tiny shelter - too small really for him to use safely & more dead docks than you could count. With more hope than conviction I attempted join up & we got really good communication in the circumstances - all four gestures given strongly. We even got two steps of follow up, but only two & I could only rub his muzzle as any higher up his head was resisted. I am now convinced there is reason for optimism; this boy can be turned around. We'll keep you posted. Cheers, Jo

Wonderful progress mary, congratulations.

Hi vicci, thank you :D

Another great day with Jo, Apollo's calmed down so much, amazing to watch Jo doing the join up, had a go myself with Jo's help today and got join up with a slight follow up so super happy considering I could barely touch him 4 weeks ago!

Thank you so much again Jo :D

This is soo great. Amazing progress and super to have Jo's analysis of the situation. All the very best to the three of you.

How do we purchase the book for starting the untouched horse?
merci.silverb@gmail.com. Need title and author

Hi. You want Monty Roberts - From My Hands To Yours. It's a road map for just about every problem you'll ever encounter & exceptional value. Depending on where in the world you are you can order it from USA on the Uni site or if in Britain use the Intelligent Horsemanship site as otherwise you pay import duty too. Not sure on other countries. I see you have not yet made full use of the Uni - that would also help you - specifically Abigail & The spooky ones. Good luck. Jo.

Hi. You want Monty Roberts - From My Hands To Yours. It's a road map for just about every problem you'll ever encounter & exceptional value. Depending on where in the world you are you can order it from USA on the Uni site or if in Britain use the Intelligent Horsemanship site as otherwise you pay import duty too. Not sure on other countries. I see you have not yet made full use of the Uni - that would also help you - specifically Abigail & The spooky ones. Good luck. Jo.

Sorry for duplication - my enthusiasm for the book got the better of me! Jo.

Lol Jo, I need to get a copy of this myself, I have kelly Marks book "Handling the Untouched Horse" it's not a big book but very useful.

We had a day cleaning the field up a bit today, he was going up to passers by and letting them have a touch, remarkable!!

Hi Mary. That's great. He's a superstar. That behaviour was in him, buried. All I did was help give him the chance to let it out. I think you'll see his confidence grow steadily. He'll be a lot of work but that's ok. You & he have lots of time to really grow together & you know I'll give you both whatever support I can. Book available from IH or at demo. See you soon. Jo

Thanks Jo, you've helped so much with bringing him out himself, I was really kinda panicking after buying him thinking "what the hell have I done?" and started to doubt myself but you have helped my confidence as well as Apollo's :D

I still can't believe he's mine!!!!

Oh and got the black dually Jo, just for when he's ready, I'll need to get the pair of long reigns asap, don't want to dirty yours, ha ha!

I only got long lines in order to use them - they wash! You have to wrap up the clips though - or the neighbours think WW3 is starting when it goes to spin. I really believe you have done the right thing buying Apollo. I think he is a lovely gentle boy & will react well to your gentle, uncomplicated plans for him. Who knows what would have happened to him if you had not stepped in - pet food can? Or perhaps so much violence he snapped & really hurt someone. Who knows - now passers by can admire & enjoy the nice chestnut horse and that is just the beginnings of your achievements! See you about 1ish tomorrow. Cheers, Jo

:D Thanks Jo I'm looking forward to today, should be quiet up there today, nice and peaceful. I think you're right, pet food or tied down and whipped and I would rather he was mine even if I was unable to get anywhere than have that!!!
I am so thankful to the Uni and to have met Jo here, I have learned so much watching the videos but having someone who knows it and has done it before right with you is amazing, I am so lucky!!

:D

It is amazing how everything has turned out. Very special now owning Apollo. So good that you could help it all happen, Jo and superb of you to put the time in. So much fun reading of your progress!

Hi. Visit 3. Another good join up but still resisting follow up - then I walked away to the fence & Mary & he came right over! I had Mary work on his ears, using a feed balancer lick as distraction. She was very calm, quiet & competent. Apollo was good & I saw a marked improvement. It's going to be a long haul but worth it. Next exciting thing ( I hope ) for Mary is coming to meet my five on Friday. My guys like visitors & hopefully will show Mary what she & Apollo can aspire to. I expect she'll go home all cuddled out. Cheers, Jo

Another great day Jo, he is so much calmer and we're both coming along nicely thanks to Jo :D I am very much looking forward to meeting your little herd on Friday, looking forward to those cuddles!!

Thank you Jo xoxoxo

Had a lovely day today meeting Jo's beautiful little herd, all gorgeous with lovely manners, all friendly,I especially loved the baby of course :D adorable, lovely to watch them all and the boys looking out for mum and baby, brilliant!

I had a great day Jo and it was lovely to meet them all and get cuddles and kisses, thank you :D xoxoxo

I am so proud. Mary is a star. The work she has done with Apollo is incredible, especially as she is the first to admit that she has little experience with horses let alone youngsters. My herd reacted like I expected - hey, hello, have you got treats? Yes, we are in your face. I think Mary learned lots. I certainly hope so. The look on her face when a 13 hand, 525 kilo boy approached her was memoriable! He is so gentle! She was so frightened. IWell, he is short but heavy! They all played their part including the filly foal. They reacted to the grain field over the fence being harvested with monster equipment so well & showed trust in humans too. I think Mary particularly liked the bit where everyone tried to get in the trailer where I keep the hay & I used my hat to get them all off. Great day - & I hope for more of the same. Alpha plus for Mary & alpha plus for my herd - everyone had a great time! Cheers, Jo.

Lol Jo, it was great! I loved the way they all looked out for each other and your little foal going into the trailer and up on the hay, squeezing past the 2 others was so funny, they are amazing. :D

I was up at Apollo at 4pm yesterday, brushed him and touched him all over, he's so good. Introduced the dually to him with my hand so he had a good sniff and let me touch him with it, I started at his bum but got up to his face with it which felt really good, I'd forgotten the numnah Jo gave me so my friend Jenny gave me one which was a bit larger so I folded it and let him sniff it and rubbed it on him. He was doing well so I popped it on his back, half folded still as something had distracted him, it was actually Jenny taking her horse back to the field, he started to walk over to the gate to see her and I seen his whole body change as he realised there was something on his back, he turned back to me which made the numnah slip to the side so I was ready for him to run, as it did, he bucked and ran over and stood at the side of me which was fine, Jenny's horse however had gotten a bit of a fright and she was fighting him all the way up to the field with me shouting "you need to get yourself a dually head coller" as she struggled with her horse.
I think Apollo did well anyway, my kid said he's calmer than Jenny's horse, ha ha! Going to go up and do the same again today, have not clipped on the little lead Jo gave me yet but may try this today, I just want to make sure I get it back off as to not temp anyone to try and hold it when I'm not there. Will report back later :D

Oh boy. This is all going really well. I am so happy for you & Apollo. However, I foresee that there will be problems but what you need to remember is, when that happens you react really calmly. Whatever has gone wrong the cure is the same - you back up to an earlier point where Apollo is happy with what is asked of him & just start the building process again. He needs to make mistakes in order to learn by them. They are opportunities not disasters! The main thing you must keep in mind is to ensure you keep yourself safe. When I went down on my knees with the foal I knew I was in danger of being knocked over but that was all. I most certainly would not do that in any other circumstances or with horses other than mine - we share so much trust. Just keep working away with him - it's a long road you're on; a lifetimes worth. Cheers, Jo

Thanks Jo :D I've always noticed that when I go in with his feed he starts to run around me a bit and it seems to getting worse, today while I was trying to calm him as I went in he was running round me starting to put his ears back and kind of charge, he actually had his front feet off the ground at one point, what can I do to stop this behaviour?

Thanks

Hi. In short, put the bucket through the fence & stand back. This behaviour is provoked by you withholding his feed whilst you walk. The other choice is to put his food where you want whilst he is excluded from that area & then let him in. There are at least two schools of thought. One, he thinks you are teasing him by not letting him have his food immediately. Or two, he is being territorial. I assume there is no such problems with his lick & you are still able to use it as a distraction for your head work. He is probably being fed more regularly than he's been used to & there is very little to eat in that field or the next door one he sometimes uses. If his hay has not been coming regularly or in sufficient amounts he will be more food oriented & angry because it's in short supply., looking for you to help him with this problem. I'll be there on Thursday so just stay safe meantime & we'll work out a plan when I'm there. Cheers, Jo

Thanks Jo, I clipped a tied up lead rope onto him today (I'd forgotten the one you gave me, doh!) got it clipped on and off twice then left him on for a bit and then took it off before I left, so that went okay, I say okay as I had to use food to get to the clip, not like he was pleased about it but it never hurt him, so hopefully he'll remember that.
I popped his food in while he was round the other side of his shelter and he came over to it calmly like you said he would. Looking forward to tomorrow, I need more hours in a day!

Fantastic progress, Mary and Jo. Just love reading about how you are going with Apollo.

Well done. Mary, Apollo is showing you something really special - trust. He is volunteering to let you into his world, something he has strongly resisted for four years. I hope you recognise the significance of this. Because you have chosen to be fair with him, he has decided to give you the benefit of the doubt. Oh man, this is such a touchy situation. What you have is an extremely fragile relationship which could be destroyed really easily. What we need to do is keep the progression slow and gentle. One slip up and Apollo will go back so fast you would not believe it. But even if that happens we now have a strong base to work from. My main concern is for your safety. If you had loads of experience with flighty youngsters I would worry a lot less. My fear is that you get over confident and end up in danger simply because you do not see what is likely to happen. We can discuss this in more depth later today, when I visit. Don't get me wrong. Apollo has no wish to cause you injury but by the same token he has no code to follow yet. He is just spontaneously reactive and in comparison to a human he is big, strong and heavy. You are not even a big hijab being so I hope you understand my concern. What I want to convey here is your progress is fantastic. Nevertheless, I want you to make considered moves, weighing up the possible outcomes and avoiding situations where Apollo might make a simple mistake that has great consequences for you. He's a great boy and doesn't deserve to be blamed for something that was not his fault. I know you feel the same - so we need to set some ground rules, for the benefit of both of you. See you pm today. Jo

Love this thread. Thank you Mary and Jo. I wish you all the luck in the world Mary and really hope that Apollo never has to be left alone again! I hate to see a single horse left in a tiny paddock without stimuli of any meaningful kind. There should be a law against it as there is Sweden!
Go steady with the treats though, Monty is quite right about that! Let your horse eat on his own without interference. Good luck.

Hi guys. Magic happened! I visited again, 4th time. I'm trying to get Mary a little independence. That would help her as well as Apollo. I took a back seat & offered verbal help so she could achieve Join up. I saw magic happen! Weather was light stormy but we hit on a lull in the rain. Ground wet, lots of weeds. Apollo was drifting so I moved to block off his drift. It worked a treat. He circled. He locked on his ear, he moved closer to Mary - and she seemed to grow a bit. Changed direction & upped the pressure slightly. He licked & chewed and then he lowered his head, but just a bit. She went passive & got Join up and then Follow up. Forgive me for being emotional but this was a real moment of truth. She has taken on a young boy who has so many reasons to reject humans. With a little support Mary has moved mountains. She can touch him anywhere, including his ears. OK. We still can't get a dually on him. We can't clip on his halter but consider this, five weeks ago no one could get near him, let alone touch him and now he goes to the fence and puts his head over to strangers. Mary's love for this boy will overcome his problems. Today I saw something exceptionally special. My herd have had the benefit of my love and attention. Mary is starting with a four year deficient and she's winning! This is glorious to watch and to be a part of. Cheers, Jo.

God bless you girl...a major challenge and accomplishment and test of patience and dedication. Keep believing in yourself, Apolo and Jo. What a fantastic journey you are on. Keep all posted ..loving the play-by-play. after 20years this is quite an undertaking....go for it!!
Lyn...from Canada

Hi. I'm a little concerned - hopefully Mary has been too busy to post her thoughts & is not cross at me for posting mine. I did not intend to 'steal her thunder'. It was just such a great experience & I'm surprised Mary wasn't so over the moon that she posted immediately - but then she does have a family to consider.

Sorry Jo, I am completey over the moon with the join up we did on Friday, you have helped me and Apollo so much, I could not be happier, your post nearly had me in tears!! If it wasn't for you I'd be over whelmed by myself, you have saved us both and I am so thankful to have you. I have been busy between dogs, family, cleaning, lol, trying to get on top of everything and get a good 2-3 hours with Apollo, getting up every day this week has been so amazing!!

I need to get him closer to me mainly for this reason and hopefully you got my text explaining my other problem ;) I'm quite happy doing Monty's ways and don't really need other people around that don't work that way or telling me I need to do something... :( ...mainly try and ignore it.

Thank you for the comments, its really made me feel better and Jo, you are a diamond, please don't worry too much, I am staying safe and going slow, just doing what we discussed and keeping away from the fence side, apart from touching the head collar and clipping and unclipping the lead line, I am not doing anything else other than poo picking and feeding (which has totally settled down, like you said) and just spending time walking around, just trying to build up the trust, I trust you to guide me in steps, he he xoxoxo

Another great day with Jo working on Apollo and me, lol, great join up and good follow up, I was throwing out the long line a few feet away from Jo and him and he only moved away the 1st time from Jo and come straight back and just stood as I continued to throw and fiddle with the long line, he has come so far, if I'd walked in there with a long line 5 weeks ago he'd have been over the other side of the field! It is great to see him coming along and the trust coming, it feels good to be helping him so much,under Jo's instructions of course! I can't stress enough how much Jo has helped my own confidence with Apollo and made sure I have stayed safe, given me loads of advice about anything I've asked, for anyone else who's unsure and not done much ground work with horses I strongly recommend getting help from someone more experienced and nice and calm and patient like Jo is, thank you again Jo, it's always a pleasure to see you and I always feel great after our days xoxoxo

Oh, how could I forget about him unclipping the lead rope himself, brilliant, now if only he could pop it on...he he! You are doing more than steering Jo, I really think that your patience and calmness has been a huge part of us getting to where we are now, 6 weeks ago this horse wouldn't let anyone touch him, I don't feel it's taken long considering he had pretty much zero human contact for over 4 years, it feels very rewarding to have gotten him to where he is and you have been a huge part of that!

:D

I've been reading this since you posted Mary, it's good to read that youre making excellent progress. Keep up the good work both of you!

Thanks Tiggy, I'm away for 8 days from tomorrow, going to miss him soooo much and my other animals but I'm hoping he'll miss me or at least the feeds from me :D

Thanks Maggie :) I've moved him up to a field way at the back where no one will go near him, he was in there with the other 4 for 4 yrs but he didn't exactly get welcomed back in, within 10 mins he'd been bitten by my friends horse!! The reason I wanted him up there is so no interference I just hope the others let him settle back in!!

I leave early hours, can't wait to come home already!!

It's only a few days until Mary comes home from her trip. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that she does not return to too much damage to her dedicated work, either resentment from Apollo or injuries whether inflicted by horses or humans. Hopefully, he enjoys his feed enough to put any negativity behind him & welcome the return to his routine of care & acceptance. Cheers, Jo

Hope you are having a great trip, Mary. My gut feeling is that he is better off with the four other horses than closer to humans so well done for moving him. Generally humans do more damage than other horses and if he has been with these four they will be O K with him once they get over their introductory stage. Thanks Jo for the up date.

He had settled in fine the next day my friend told me, when I come home I went up to see him and they were no where to be seen, we started shouting and I said to my friend "can you hear hoof's? I can" it got louder and louder until we could see the 3 of them that were in the field running over, it was great!! He come right up to me and even though he'd settled I felt I had been missed.

I had said before I left that I wanted to move him closer if possible and the lady who's yard it is said she'd be in contact with someone closer to me by the time I come back and sure enough, much closer to me another lady has a yard that's just starting so went to see it yesterday and it's quite perfect for us, so much closer and easier to get to and better spaces and a stable if I want one which may help things along massively :D I will keep updating!

Thats great news Mary, very pleased for you :-)

Great news Mary, hope you had a good holiday! Ha I remember when I had my first pony, I didn't go to do her one evening she let me know for about a week she wasn't happy about someone else doing her!!

Thanks Vicci and Tiggy :) My kid got sunburnt on the 2nd day and wasn't allowed in the sun again, most expensive sunburnt ever, lol!

Got a long rein on him today, I forgot to not hold it for a second and felt the burn as he took off, ran around the field and stopped, so I picked it up and walked up to him and told him he was good. I put a bit pressure on it but he wouldn't move but I wasn't expecting him to, he didn't rear, kick or anything so it went better than I thought. I'm going back up tomorrow, I Really need him to lead and load so we can move asap, we have a new place it's just getting him there!!

Well done you! Can forgive the oversight - & I'm sure he will too. Keep this up & I'll bring trailer to move them both. What you need to work on is teaching Apollo what the dually does. Back him up! Be gentle. He will get it. Kirk likes a hand on his chest just to confirm which direction he's to go in. Don't be too demanding. Apollo will be confused so give him the chance to work out what you're wanting.,forwards with gusto & backwards too. Probably take 4 or 5 sessions. He's a bright lad. If you need help I'll come on whatever day suits. Hope Ethan over his sunburn. Cheers, Jo.

Hi Jo, that would be great if you could come over, I went up today and he has a rather big gash on his front leg at the fetlock but the front, it's like a big smile, I am holding back the tears! I feel like I haven't got a clue what I'm doing here....ah, breath.....I was thinking of trying a transporter of sorts, Eric Gillie, hoping they could move him quicker as I can't get out of there fast enough, but for the price they want a possibly won't cut it! I am completely fed up with it up there! I put some sort of purple spray on his leg, I don't know what else to do? :(

Wound: spray is good. Vaseline is really good & I get a clean pan, boil water & dissolve as much salt in it as possible. Then store in a clean container. Saline is great for wounds, followed by Vaseline.
Travel: there are pros & cons for either private or professional. The thing is this, if the horse is difficult/impossible to load, you will still be charged. If you are not confident to load the horse yourself then the driver may do it for you - using their own preferred methods. They won't beat him on but they may be more forceful than you'd like.

Right. I can come on Wednesday or Friday or both. How are you getting on with clipping on? Do you want me to visit or move him? If you can't clip on yet then there is work to do. Believe me, I know what it's like keeping a horse somewhere you'd rather not be & it's horrid. I'll do anything I can to make sure you are both away from there ASAP but it's not viable to travel Apollo loose, not to mention exceptionally difficult & dangerous to try & load him not controlled - both to him & us.

I know Jo, it's a nightmare!! I can get the rope clipped on him, small and long (I bought the long lines) but he won't move once connected although I didn't get any hoofs off the ground either so not too bad. I don't want to clip the long line on just now as his leg is swollen and have dissolved the salt as you said (I should have had this prepared and ready as Jo had advised previously) We'll make it Friday then Jo, hopefully his leg will be better and if you want to haul your box or come over first and see what you think I'll keep doing what I can in the meantime. I am going to try to get him to step onto a concrete bit at the shelter, different footing for him and stay patient and try and stop being overly emotional about the whole situation!

Thanks Jo :)

Ok. Friday it is. I'll bring the trailer & we'll see what happens. Keep working on him - you'll get there. Be sure & contact the new place so they know to expect you. Once you get a longline on you stand a sensible distance from Apollo &, with your weight on your back foot (don't stand square or you'll fall over), put pressure on the halter. Keep it firm but gentle & constant. The very second he moves towards you release the pressure & praise him hugely. You do not need this to be the dually but that would be better. Either way, he will need at least six repeats on the same day to imprint him. Only a tiny step or two necessary & you can reduce the pressure with each repeat so that each time he moves towards you it is progressively more co operation & more his idea. Good luck. Jo

Feel for you Mary but Jo is great and there for you. You are making great progress so hang in there. His wound sounds OK. It will swell a bit but should go down in a day or two with the salt water and Vaseline or the purple wound spray. You are doing well to be able to dress it. If you could just borrow or get a long lead rope but not as long as the lunge lines you will find that easier and less risk of getting tangled in it yourself. There are some really good ones on the market here - about three times as long as a normal lead rope but made out of rope so they are easier to hold etc than a lunge line. I don't think you should try one of the advertised carriers so just be patient and wait until Apollo is ready to load. He will need to be responsive and relaxed with the dually first. If you can find a flat board you may see if he will walk on that for you. All the best with the next part of your training.

I'm so pleased to say Apollo has been moved!!!! Jo is bloody amazing!!!!!!!! Apollo hadn't ever been close to a trailer and people were telling me various things like to starve him for a couple of days but Jo didn't need to do anything cruel, with patience and kindness she let him figure it out for himself. He was on and off of course but was given time to process what was happening and gradually Jo got him loaded without any force what so ever, I started crying, lol!! I am so happy, it was nice to go to sleep without worrying about him hurting himself on something (I'm starting to cry, I have no idea why, ha ha) now we can carry on our journey with Jo's help since she has him leading and loading in less than 3 days as he wasn't even leading, it was quite the sight watching Jo lead him over the field!
I'm so proud of them both, it's emotional! :D

Whoopee. Got it done! No dually head collar, yet. No panels. In the middle of a field. No force applied. Ok, 3 days is a bit longer than one would like & hopefully, with practice, now that Apollo knows trailer = good stuff, he'll warm to the task even more. He is a complete foody but you still need trust to get them to step into a narrow space. Even when he did step forward we restrained from putting the bum bar over & let him back out several times. When we did put the bar over, very quietly, he was so distracted with apples, in a bucket, he only realised when he sat on it & his face was pure fear. I did all I could to reassure him, including feeding him a bit more apple by hand, speaking to him & rubbing his head. Then I tied the 12 ft line & went round the back to close up. I rubbed his backside, just to show him what a great fella he is. Instantly, he hunkered down, every muscle clenched, clearly expecting a beating. So I spoke to him & rubbed some more till he relaxed a bit. Then we closed up. His pal Tommy is a foody too. When we opened the trailer he remembered there was a haynet in there & pushed his way on past us all! We put his head collar on later. Once they were both on we closed the back ramp & drove slowly & gently away from that time in their lives. Some 20 miles later we pulled into the most beautiful & welcoming place. Old style barns, large paddocks with trees & best of all, new friends ( equine & human ). We drove into the field & used the front ramp. Tommy, being older & wiser than Apollo, off loaded like a real gent & went investigating. Apollo froze to the spot & needed coaxed off with carrot. Both horses were warm but neither was sweating. Apollo came out & then belted away. I had warned Mary that this was likely so she knew not to hang on & the 12 ft line survived the experience. When they calmed down we removed Tommy's head collar & Apollo's line. Later, Mary put spray on his several day old wound & they both spent time at the fence with us. Looks like two very happy boys are going to readily settle here. I don't have a word to describe how good I feel. Cheers, Jo.

Well done to you all equine & human. Apollo will remember this quiet and good experience thanks to you Jo. Sounds like they both have a nice new home & better experiences to come.

Well done Jo and Mary. Just wonderful to read that it all went well even if it did take time. Time should never be an issue if it means success in the end. Sounds a great place you have found for them Mary. All the best from now on.

Thank you Tiggy and thank you Maggie :D The place is great!! I'm having the vet out today to have a look at his leg and see what he thinks, it was bleeding yesterday and I can't stop thinking about it and worrying, glad Jo's coming over also.

I would have given up without you I think Jo or just been stuck and not done much, I just wanted to say a HUGE Thank you, Apollo and myself are so lucky to have you to help us, I just can't put into words what it means to me!! :)

Great progress Mary, onwards and upwards :-)

Thanks Vicci :D I'm going to attempt to put a bandage on his leg tomorrow as vet forgot sedative today, I think he'll be okay though, he let me touch it today so here's hoping!

Well, no luck with the bandage, sedative didn't really make any difference!
I really need to get a rug on him as he was shivering yesterday and it's not even that cold yet but it was raining, he's never had anything on his back though so I'm worried how he's going to react as he flew off one time when I popped a numnah on his back! Any ideas on what would be the best way to do this, he's never had a rug on in the 4 year he's lived out, he's never had anything on his back! I'm going to start introducing him into a stable as he's never been in either but now that he's mine I want him to be well looked after, not freezing all winter in the field! All advice is appreciated. :D

Hi. Can you borrow a pair of brushing boots, Velcro fastening? I don't have any but you would have far more chance of getting them on than a bandage. As far as shivering in the rain is concerned, lessen the grooming & let the grease build up in his coat. We can introduce stuff on his back over time. However, the priority needs to be Dually - that will allow learning to happen much more effectively. I will bring a very small rug on Tuesday, Kirks baby rug. It's twice the size of a saddle cloth but much easier to handle than one the right size. Remember, don't panic. We will get it all done but it will take time. Yes, these things will make his life better but we must convince him to accept them. It's a lot for him to deal with! Just keep working away - it'll start to happen slowly but as his confidence grows so will the pace. See you Tuesday afternoon. Cheers, Jo

Well done both of you, I've just been catching up on the story and I have a tear in my eye (you'll have to stop this it spoils my image). Apollo is lucky to have you both looking after him! Good luck!

Hi Mary - sure Jo will solve this one for you but for rugging just start with a light summer cotton with no neck cover that doesn't rattle and introduce it to him as you did with the halter. Watch Monty's videos where he is introducing new things to spooky horses e.g Spooky Gardinia. Have the dually and gloves on and a long line then start the introduction ceremony. Initially just have it in a ball on the ground and take him up to it and let him sniff it, then spread it out and again take him up to it and maybe let him tread on it and walk over it. Then quietly pick it up in a ball and approach him with it - when he stands still take it away. Continue until you can rub him all over with it. Then try opening it up and doing the same thing and shaking it out near him. When you both are ready put it over him but don't do up any of the ties and leave it on him for a few minutes before you take it off gently. Keep on putting it on and off until he will stand there as you put it on normally and drag it off then put it on and lead him around with it - try dragging it off as he is walking and see how he reacts. Finally put it on and do up all the straps and turn him loose with it. Once all this is successful then introduce your heavier rug - this time it should be much quicker and easier. I wouldn't use a combo, i. e. rug with a neck cover attached until after he is started just a simple, lighter weight, weather proof rug should be fine initially especially given he has not been rugged previously.

Thanks Newt and lol, I think your image is fine, glad you enjoyed the thread :D

Thank you Maggie, some great advice there, I was saying to my friend we could try with her light summer fly rug so will try rolling it up and giving your advice a go, I'm thinking I could maybe do this in the school and like Jo said, try and get the dually on and get him tying. I tied him in the school the other day with the sedative, he broke off after about 10 seconds the 1st time and took the fence pole down the second time. I'm afraid of tying him so he can't brake loose as I don't want him falling down to the ground and freaking out, the thought of it scares me, I know I would panic for him :( Getting no where getting the dually on himeither but if I can get him in a stable and settled then my thought is that this would be a better chance of getting it on and off. I am touching the head colar he has on as much as I can and sometimes he's fine, other times he's having none of it, same with the lead rope!
I am just going to keep going at a comfortable pace, I know it's patience and time and that's fine, I'm not in a hurry and not wanting to rush Apollo in any way so that's fine, I'd just like him to either be comfortable in a stable for this winter or rugged, I just want him to know that someone cares about him now and loves him and no ones going to ever hurt him or neglect him ever again.

Looking forward to tomorrow Jo, see what we can get done, I've cleaned and disinfected my stable so I'm going up to feed my baby and possibly make up the stable if my straw has arrived. See you then hun :)

Hi Mary

I would like to offer a word of caution please if I may. As a horse and dog trainer I work with many rescued animals and I see the effects of owners trying to over compensate for the miserable background the animal has had and start to smother the animal with food, blankets, treats etc etc. Please try not to do this Mary; I know your intentions come from nowhere but love and kindness but over caring (yes there is such a thing!!) can do more harm and it makes the animal wonder why you are behaving so strangely hahaha. Your hose will NOT make the connection between what you are doing and his past life - remember they live here and now. You won't believe how many people I've spoken to who get upset that their "ungrateful" animal does not appreciate all teh mollycoddling!! Please accept I mean this with a genuine heart Mary and I know Jo will keep you grounded ;-)
:
Re: the stable - a tip: make sure the stable is well lit so that there are no dark corners - remember to a horse this is a cave - I would put food in there, doors wide open, lots of space, plenty of light, let him wander in and out freely for a few days before you begin to close the door on him.

Whoa! Apollo won't tie to anything until he stands. He won't stand until he leads, confidently & he will do neither until we get the Dually on. You have to keep in mind that he is still in the mindset of "tie me to post & do bad stuff". His mental damage will take a lot of work to overcome, but we will do it. I've said before that his natural comfy distance seems to be around 25 feet & a long line is 30. That's the key. If we can convince him that belting off has little value & staying put is safe, warm, loving & wonderful we'll have broken the back of the problem. Poor chap is playing catch up. You are setting too many goals all at once. Let's brake it down. He was shivering in the rain. Cut right back on the grooming to let the natural grease in his coat build up. Feed a bit more, progressively. Then he has the tools for the job. Waterproofing & energy. Rugs are not crucial. Stable is not crucial. Grease is. Shivering is ok - it's part of keeping alive, when we get cold. Not shivering is the dangerous bit. That's the first sign of hypothermia, when you're cold but stop shivering. I'll be with you later today & we can work out a strategy to achieve your goals but the number one priority is to get Apollo to accept the Dually. Once we put that one to bed all the rest will be easy, or easier. I got the Dually half up his face repeatedly when waiting for you to bring his feed when we loaded him. That was nine days ago. If I'd kept that up on a daily basis we'd be putting it on & off by now. These goals are 'doable' but it takes concerted work. See you later. Cheers, Jo.

We have news & I know Mary has computer issues just now - so, having given her time to try & post, I'm taking it upon myself to update you. My Friday visit was momentous! We put a 30!ft line on Apollo & with the support of his pal, Tommy, we went from the field to the yard. Not without incident. Apollo took off but he was a gent & stopped before he pulled Mary off her feet, leaving her a couple of feet of long line in her hand! We put Tommy in an adjacent stable, where they could see one another & then concentrated on Apollo. He treated the stable much as he had the trailer. He came a bit in then backed off. We gave him this option, freely. He chose not to blast off & came back repeatedly to check out 'the cave'! After some 8 or 10 investigations he came right through the door, to join us both with the incentive of mints. We closed the door after a little while & gave him much attention over it. He was calm & accepting. Mary went to mix feeds for both of them. I started to fiddle with the dually, trying to put the head strap over his neck. Apollo was not keen & backed off each time. First I stopped him backing up with a lite touch on his traditional head collar. Then I went with him, backwards but quietly, holding the head strap on his neck. He let the strap up on his neck & then flop over his neck. We worked on. By the time Mary came back with the feeds I had managed to put the dually on the wrong bit of Apollo, round his neck. However, he was accepting this & we fed them both. We then gave both a small amount of hay. By this point both Tommy & Apollo were fairly convinced that a personal space ( stable ) was a really good idea. Mary & I worked together to ease the dually halter into place, over the top of his normal halter, & we did it! Mary has pictures & videos on her phone of Apollo, calm, in a stable, wearing the black dually, all for the first time in his life. We fussed Apollo greatly. Then we took the dually gently off. Put it back on Tommy & walked both of them, far more quietly, back to the field. What a wonderous day! We have created the way in. Tommy can now start his retraining to become a gent - which he is far from being, if Jenny, his owner, chooses. Apollo can now get a meaningful yes & no & so can start his real learning curve. Not that he hasn't been on it for some time now but the difference is having the right tools to work with. Glorious success. What a day! They don't come much better than this - but I think they might!! Will keep you posted cheers, Jo

Fabulous news. You both must be so chuffed.

Great progress Jo and Mary, congratulations

Fantastic update, Jo and Mary. Congratulations to you both. Not sure if you have a rope halter but I find that putting the dually on over the rope halter then slipping the rope halter off from under the dually is the easiest when they are a bit head shy with the dually. What a break through you have made. Training will be so much easier and safer once he accepts the dually.

Thanks for updating Jo and thanks for the comments guys :D I had the dually on him the next day in the stable, got it on the same way as Jo did and he was nice and settled with Tommy beside him.
The following day my friend Jenny went to take Tommy out so we took them into the stables and Apollo walked round perfectly stopping to wait on Jenny as she tried to walk Tommy, Tommy got tacked up and Jenny and I walked out the yard with me still able to see Apollo who the yard owner had stayed with but he was running round so I went back over and asked Mary the yard owner to go and check on Jenny. 5 minutes later I was told Tommy had knocked Jenny off her feet and bolted off, Apollo had calmed down a lot which was great but Tommy (Jenny's horse) has been on calmer since before she got him and she had wanted to stop using it, I don't know about calmer's but guessing that was part of the problem, she can't ride him, he's nuts! I fed them in the stables and they walked back round without incident with my dually on Tommy!
Apollo had managed to get his head collar off by the following day but I managed to get it back on yesterday with the aid of a feed bucket and throwing it over his head the buckling the nose, at least it only took about 20 minutes this time, lol, so I'm going to be working on the head collar, getting his feet picked up and the stabling.

@vicci, I know what you mean with people living in their animals past, I didn't mean I was doing it for that but see how it could have come across like that, lol, I know the animals don't dwell on it so neither do I, were not looking back cause we're not going that way ;) thanks for the comment, I just wanted to clarify that I wasn't dwelling on his past, cheers :)

We leave a head collar on one of our horses because she is easier to get hold of with it, putting up no resistance at all, but without it she can be quite difficult. But it worries me; there is so much that can go wrong when we're not there and I know that Mr Roberts makes it clear that we should not leave the dually on for this very reason. But we don't want a fight everytime we want to get hold of her. So I was wondering what the rest of you think to this? Is it alright to leave a horse in a normal head collar until she gets used to being handled and is confident that nothing is going to happen to hurt her? When shouldn't you leave a head collar on at all?

You should NEVER leave the dually on your horse unattended and don't tie with the rings! I have a normal head collar on for the same reason as yourself, just until he gets used to it going on and off, mine has had his on for 5 weeks and he's been fine, his has come off when he was rolling as it was lying in the middle of the field where he rolls and there's nothing in the field he can get it caught on, so personally I'm not worried about it, other may disagree though, but you should work on until it's not an issue, that's what I'm doing anyway, good luck :)

There are specific field halters that have a breakaway clip on them so that if the horse gets caught on anything it snaps off. Personally, I don't like ANY headcollar left on a horse. I do understand that it can help with the catching but I think it's better to spend time on the catching problem itself rather than using the headcollar as a shortcut - though I appreciate that there are practicalities (particularly in livery yards with multiple horses) that can make this tricky so a breakaway field halter is a good compromise but not an ordinary one and certainly never a Dually

You are all right. Yes, there are break away halters. Yes, should never leave an unattended horse in a dually but you can tie up with the back ring & yes you should work to rid your horse of problems catching so they can be halter less. I'm so pleased to hear that Apollo has allowed you to both put the dually back on, in the stable &'let you put an ordinary halter back on. Currently, he is keeping his superstar status. Bless! Tommy, on the other hand, is very worrying. Jenny needs to make a decision. Does she want to cut her loses & hand him over to the ILPH, who would care for him as he deserves & ensure his future or is she willing to commit more money for his upkeep & have him retrained. None of this is his fault. I have never seen overreach scars like his in 50 years plus. His reaction when food is involved tells me he has been abused & starved. Ok, he's not the most attractive horse but he deserves better than he's had. The only chance Jenny has of getting her money back will mean Tommy goes back to Edna & abuse. Can Jenny live with that? I sincerely hope not.

No Jo, she won't sell him back, she's pretty heartbroken about the whole thing but I've told her she's not alone but she needs to get him worked as she doesn't have the experience but to do it, she's all over the place just now so it's hard to tell, it's one thing to say you want to work on him but no good if your doing nothing, I'm staying out of it just now, she needs to make up her own mind, we can all give advice but can't force her to take it. I just hope she's okay and doesn't get hurt by him before somethings done. xx

Apollo and Tommy freak out when they're separated, would it be better to separate their field with electric fencing to get them used to being apart or will this just come in time? Cheers x

There are two schools of thought on separation syndrome: some people like to lower the stress by letting them be close by each other but not in together & others say the solution is far enough away that they cannot see or hear each other. I think I said to you that any question to do with horses will get lots of different answers & some of them will be right. The only correct answer is the one that works for the horse you're dealing with. Cheers, Jo.

If it is not causing to great a problem for you I would leave them together as that will keep them more relaxed and happier. They both sound as if they need some down time together. However if Tommy is creating hassles for you with Apollo's training then it may be best to separate them but keep them next to each other. No sense stressing them out by moving them a long way apart and horses need the company of other horses. They are always happier if they have a companion in with them.

I agree, if it's not causing problems let them stay together or close by. I feel for Jenny. It's not a good situation but my main sympathy is with Tommy. He's not a nutter, he's a thoroughbred. Having seen the vet rasping his teeth it's clear someone has put time & effort into him but his lack of manners & scars show he fell on hard times. My fear is that Jenny dithers too long & allows an accident to happen. That would not be Tommy's fault but he will be blamed. He desperately needs consistent & fair handling - that would transform him but he'll never be a family plod. Cheers, Jo.

If space, money, and time allow it may be worth considering a small companion pony as there may come a time where they have to be separated (for whatever reason) and this can ease the strain on the one left behind. Just a thought, not always practical to do I know.

Thank you guys :)
I'm happy to say that Jenny is going to work with Tommy, he needs some time spent with him training but also being loved on a bit as we feel he has pretty much been taken out to ride and put back and has lacked human company and ground training, it's not his fault at all and Jenny realises this.
I think separating them in time may be needed but he really helps me get Apollo out the field and round to the stable, I just don't want to rely on this forever but realise it may be needed for now and that's fine as we're going to be up there together, Jenny's using my dually which is helping her
a lot, she really needs to get one though as when Jo comes to help me with getting Apollo used to the dually I'll need mine and I don't think she'd be wise to go back to just a head collar.
I really couldn't afford another horse/pony Vicci, I can just afford Apollo, never thought I'd ever have a horse tbh, would be great if I could but Mary from the yard has a beautiful highland and if he can settle with them then that would be great, he was in with him but Tommy had a few bites so Jenny wasn't too keen to keep them together so Bobby (the highlander) has been taken out for now but I'm hoping he will be back in with them at some point. :)

Um. Let me be blunt. Jenny is not familiar with how to use a dually halter or Join up - a fundamental part of the training method. Tommy is showing dangerous tendencies & needs to be handled by someone with more experience, at least until he has achieved consistent sessions where he accepts correctly leading & standing still & understands how the dually works. This is half a ton of out of control elite athlete - quite capable of killing her. Before she can give him love she needs his respect, which no one has at the moment. If she said she was going to spend time bonding & giving love to a man eating tiger you would rightly think her bonkers. Well, in my opinion, what is being suggested is no less bonkers - she just can't the danger. Tommy has already tossed her in a heap using his head as a bat. His natural weapons are hooves, helpfully shod & teeth, capable of removing parts of the human body. I am going to be truthful, I would get jittery before a first session with Tommy. Not the best thing for a great Join up. Right, rant over. For God Sake try & get Jenny to just make the short journey from the field to the stable & back, feed Tommy & stay safe. I'll be there next week & will do what I can to improve matters, if Jenny will let me. I cannot stress how dangerous I believe Tommy could become. Sorry, but it's the truth. Cheers, Jo.

Jo, I do agree with you, this horse sounds as if he can be really nasty with the wrong or inexperienced handling! It would be a shame for either his owner or the horse to be hurt. Can you & Mary convince her to join us here on the uni, both for the lessons & the combined advice from all of us. I know we all have slightly differing ideas on some subjects usually from one experience or another but ultimately we all want help the horses we are around, safely & responsibly. I'm sure I read that Mary has tickets to go to a demo, Mary can get another dually from there for her friend, who can then watch the DVD, which might encourage her to join the uni.

Thanks Tiggy - you're support is much appreciated. I'm feeling a bit isolated at the moment. Approaching 60 & at 4'11 I have no desire to use a blue dually! I have experience of 3 day eventers so I know what thoroughbreds can be like. This one has been.hurr & is showing classic signs. Often they fall, very cheaply, although not in this case, into the wrong hands. Jenny seems to believe she has skills I know she does not have. I feel I'm being suckered into something. I know if the first session goes well I can fix him. Will Jenny give me that chance? Mary, Apollo's owner would - but he's a honey. This is serious, but she just seems unable or unwilling to see it. I'm doing my best to help out. If you all could post in I would really appreciate it. I really want your input! Cheers, jo.

No problem Jo, isn't that why we're all here, to help by bouncing ideas around? Are you going to the demo? May be worth a chat to Kelly or Monty if you get a chance!! I know you're not daft but if you do any work with Tommy stay safe!

Thanks Jo, I loaned a charger to get on, I didn't mean Jenny was going to work with him herself, she isn't, she does not have the skills or confidence. All she's doing is walking him from the field to the stable to get him used to the yard to to mainly help me and even that terrify's me! I'm nearly in tears here, I don't want to tell my friend that she can't handle her horse and crush the little confidence she has but I DO NOT want her getting hurt or worse, I don't know what to do :( I've told her to come on the uni since she's had Tommy as I'd joined before I got Apollo, anyone reading the start knows I didn't own Apollo when I made this thread.
I did buy tickets for Jenny and I to go to Monty's demo and I'm hoping a light will go on for Jenny. Only a C**T would sell a doped up horse and she was going up and riding him for 4-6 weeks before she paid for him but his previous owner thought he was fine, I feel she seen Jenny coming and took major advantage of my friend :( It's a mess. I am terrified she gets hurt or worse!!
I'm going to have a chat to her today and if you can still come on Thursday or Friday this week Jo(and even want to, lol) I'll have a chat with her today and see if she wants to get you too and even just 30-45 mins work to asses him, I think it be worth it for her and then just be honest with her, I don't want anything happening to her, just let me know Jo and I'll let you know what she says, I couldn't mind the day you were available this wek, lol, cheers hun xoxoxo

No problem Mary. I'll see you Thursday (tomorrow) & we'll see what can be sorted out. You never know, Join up may change him - I've seen it happen. Skills can be learnt, as you know first hand & confidence increases with success. There was me thinking what a big job to take on helping you & Apollo, in a very good way. Make no mistake, Jenny & Tommy is a mammoth task in comparison! Tell Mary (at the yard) that Louis had his teeth done by a female vet not a month back from maternity leave. Clearly a little rusty as she insisted on sedating him but he was no bother at all. Just a big, gentle soul. Why she needed me to stand & hold the lead rope (6 ft) attached to the head collar round his neck I'm unsure but at least I was able to keep him quiet, calm & cooperative. Cheers, Jo.

You're right Mary only a C**T would sell a doped horse! It's such a shame you guys are so far away, Kelly was asking for demo horses for The Grange, Devon yesterday, Tommy sounds like he'd be a challenge for Monty!!

Now there's an idea. Tommy for GLENEAGLES. I'd be the first to step back for Monty! My assessment is Tommy is manic. I know I can improve that, but Monty could show us how to fix it! Worth some serious thought. Cheers, Jo.

Yep full of em, not all good mind!!! Go to Kelly's IH page, download & fill in the form, 3rd tab on home page it drops down to a small list. If Tommy goes I'll be wishing I was your end of the country instead of here in Cornwall.

Hi. I've just come home having had a really good afternoon. I went over to try & see what could be done with Tommy. Using a makeshift round pen in the corner of the field - electric plastic fence posts & a single strand of rope, we attempted a Join up, never easy on grass. This round pen was not electrified by the way, in case you were wondering. We started off with 5 or 6 rapid laps one way & changed direction - God blessed him with good paces by the way. All was going well until Tommy jumped out & demolished my temporary fence. Fortunately, no damage to Tommy or me but I think Apollos Mary has rope burn on her leg. Nothing too serious though. We rebuilt the pen whilst Tommy spent time next to Apollo & some other horses further up the field. Then Jenny brought him back to the pen. In the interim something had radically changed! Tommy had become calm & clearly wanted to be with me. I pushed him round the pen, more gently than before in acknowledgement of his attitude change. He lowered his head but did not lick & chew. Then he came to me & I rubbed his head. Then he followed me. I clipped the long line on & we walked very slowly together. He was happy to walk fast or slow, most unusual for a thoroughbred & unheard of for this one. Ok he got schooled a few times & is still very wooden in reverse but he stood almost perfectly still for about 2 minutes. Now Tommy barges & drags people about & has been a complete pain for like forever. He was now acting like he was full of sedative, except no sedative had been given. I brought Jenny into the pen & encouraged her to walk with him as I had done. Perfect gent. Then he stood pretty well again. We left it at that for today. Jenny seems much happier & Tommy has relaxed so much it really is unbelievable. The yard owner remarked that he no longer has angry eyes. Talk about changing beyond recognition! And there was me thinking I could be charged at & run down. I've left Jenny a red dually as the black one Mary lent her is a touch too big & instructions to keep working calmly & fairly on his leading, stopping & standing still. Next visit I'll try & talk her through a Join up. Wonders will never cease. Cheers, Jo.

Excellent news Jo,so glad you're all ok. Perhaps Tommy realised that you were using his language & not causing him pain, from the sounds of things that's what's been going on with him in life, thus the severe defensive mechanism!! All of a sudden "something" is attempting to "speak" to him but its in human form not equine. I think it's association not necessarily memory. I hope that Jenny really notices a difference in Tommy for the next few days, before her join up.

I wonder if it's sank in with Tommy a bit overnight, we'll see when we're getting them in today, I have a bruise along the one leg from the rope but nothing too bad, better than I expected, at the time it felt like it took the skin!
Tommy was different by the time Jenny was taking him back into his own field and saying to me on the drive home, she doesn't want to give up on him and is so pleased with Jo, I think it'll do wonders for Jenny's confidence, I know I feel way more confident around Apollo but it's taken time, I couldn't have imagined leading him out a field and into yard even 4 weeks ago but now it's amazing, I'm still very aware of what's on the end of the line though, so no over confidence, just not tense, a relaxed walk to the stable.
They are both so relaxed together in their stables. Jenny said to me she wants the bond that me and Apollo has, she said he listens for your voice around the yard and the way he looks at you...I told her it has taken since July spending every minute I have with him pottering about doing something in the field or a bit of grooming or just talking to him and running my hands all over his body...I think she's going to enjoy the ground time with Tommy and the relationship will develope with patience and time, I didn't get the bond I have with Apollo in a week, it took quite a bit of time, I don't really know how long as I was enjoying it too much to keep count, he he, cheers :D

Glad you're ok Mary..Hopefully Tommy's thought about it for a few hours. It's a wonderful feeling when your horse Wants to be with you, not just at grub time!! It's consistency and repetition and staying calm no matter what they do. Getting angry,for whatever reason, with them or yourself is destructive to the relationship. Is Jenny going with you to the demo??
We've just had issues with Winter today! Not impressed that all her buddies were turned out but not her as she was going to be worked! Barging like a bullock to be tacked up, gave her 15 mins on the lunge before we got on, not happy bucking rearing etc, but just made nothing of it kept asking her to move forwards. Did quite well as this was the first time the others have been out before she's worked! She settled then worked well, happy now as back out with her mate's!
These things have to be done but by not reacting to her and getting after her she'll hopefully be better next time, they go out, she does some work then goes back to them in the field.

Tommy was a complete gentleman coming and going from the field today, Jenny never got dragged at all :D I think it's made Jenny feel so much better as well as helping Tommy, Apollo walked in and out no problem, actually walked back into field in front of Tommy so great stuff all round!

I'm glad it went well with Winter Tiggy, the lunge probably helped a lot and taking the time to let her settle, I'm happy it went so good for you both, good luck for next time x

Oh, and I've changed my pic to my Apollo :D

Fantastic progress! Lovely to hear

Mary that's fantastic news! Apollo's dum 'andsome chappie!!

Great news. Congratulations to you all.

Fantastic! I'm so happy. Tell Jenny to be firm but gentle with the dually as she has cooperation. Tommy must have been so desperate for a friend - like Blushing E T from Monty's Memories, supposedly the angriest horse in the world. By the way, I was right - Apollo suits blue! He's gorgeous! Tommy has made a HUGE commitment & we need to be very careful to be totally fair with him. Progress must be incremental, calm & fair. He needs to make mistakes, that's how he will learn but no one must react aggressively when he does. Simply use the dually, gently but firmly. This is a profound example of how well Monty's methods work, even better than Apollo. The difference is that Apollo had a bad experience some while ago & found comfort by steering clear of humans. As they never provided him with anything useful - putting hay & water in his field wouldn't register as in the wild horses simply range about to find these necessities, he saw no NEED for humans. We are changing that, day by day. Tommy had a daily problem with cruel treatment. He got angry, to the point where he glazed over & was purely angry. We've broken through the glaze. We've found the real Tommy. Now we need to nurture that relationship & all things are possible. Keep up the great work. Cheers, Jo.

Hi. Quick update. Checked with Jenny yesterday (Sunday) & all is well. No problems with Apollo or Tommy. I'm back there on Thursday & we'll work on progression with them both. We'll keep you posted. Cheers, Jo.

My boy did great today, I had the vet out to try and get his 1st vaccination done and he was brilliant as was my vet Colin, taking his time to reintroduce himself to Apollo and touching him before doing the jag, he just stood and ate his mints, didn't even flinch when Colin popped the needle in, so good!

:D

Excellent. Gently gently catchy monkey, nice when you have a Vet,farrier,dentist etc who can be quiet with them to regain their confidence.

Hi Mary. Well done! Go back in this post 8 weeks - it'll bring home just how far Apollo has come. Yes, we still have lots to stuff to work on but, boy oh boy, we've covered some ground PDQ. That was when you tried your first Join up - seems like a lifetime ago. Cheers, Jo.

Thanks :D

It does feel like a long time ago and we have come so far, I know it's a slow pace to a lot of horse people but it's the right pace for us, it feels right, just needing to work on getting the head collar on and off without it being an issue as it still very much is and getting his feet done is our next goal to work to. :)

Tommy's gotten worse, very aggresive in his stable with Jenny, if she tries to pick up his back feet he turns trying to strike her, I was holding him for her to try and give her plenty room but had to tell her to get out the stable as he turned towards her so I held him quite tightly to let her get out and he kicked out and lifted his front feet off the ground, I just let go before he hurt himself. Jenny really needs to make up her mind what she's going to do with him, I consider him very dangerous and think he needs a confident, very experienced owner. He gets his glazed look and shows the white of his eye a lot, I feel for Jenny as I know she loves him but I'm terrified for her! :( I feel gutted to write it but I hope someone will want him for a project and Jenny can get something safer!

Hi Mary, that sounds as if it was nasty! Is the yard secure, had similar issues with Winter, found that if there was 2 of us and we tied her up outside with a net ( she loves her hay) and had a line On the schooling ring of the Dually, we had space to move away from her if she decided to have an issue! We did her everyday at 4pm and in the end she just got bored as we made nothing of her antics. She used to just walk off or try to kick the farrier. Which was strange as her previous owner is training to be a farrier, she's up your way in Aberdeen area. To the point that we twitched her purely as a last resort that particular day, my farrier hates having to do that, but we had one shoe on & one off!! She still has her walk off moments but not very often now! But outside is better if you can, stables are small spaces that a horse owns.

Oh just had another thought, move his feet every time you finish a foot! Have you watched the join up for farrier lessons??

Hi. I'm back on Thursday. I suggest you try outside, see Tiggy's post. If that's still problematic leave it till Thursday & ill see what I can do. The trouble is Jenny lacks confidence & experience so she projects her stress to him - remember, he was fine with Jenny & his feet in the pen last week. Tiggy, these stables are HUGE but I agree, I think he's being territorial- he has food in there. Cheers, Jo.

I would also remind Jenny that Tommy is only now considering trusting someone - this new trust is very very fragile and if he is the slightest bit in doubt he will revert to what he knows; this is understandable. Everything has to be done with this in mind and not trying to move forward too quickly. If picking his feet up worked well in the pen then just do it there for now where he remembers feeling safe. He may have a very negative association in his past from feet being picked up in the stable.
:
One extra thing about picking feet up - he is an ex racehorse isn't he (or have I imagined that/made it up???). I worked with an ex racer whose owner was getting mangled every time she tried to pick his front and back feet on the right side (left back and front fine). She was baffled until I pointed out that many race yards pick up all 4 feet from the left hand side - i.e. stand by the left front foot/back foot, reach through and lift right hand feet up and under. Tried it with this horse - Bingo! all fine - he had to taught how to do it "our way" - just a thought, may be completely irrelevant, just a useful tip for all of us :-)

Thank you all for the various comments :)

He's a TB but not raced but apparently spent time at a race yard for some reason, I have no clue as to the ins and outs of this though!
He is used to having his feet done by Jenny outside with some hay to munch on so may get her to try that tomorrow or see if she wants to wait for you Jo, I don't feel I can help her much as I don't feel confident around him either :( I think it's the stable and he'll be better outside, it is only his back feet and his shoes are loose, could it also be adding to him kicking out and not want them picked up?
I think she does want to work with him, she needs to stop worrying and remember she has time, as long as it takes, I've told her to not worry about not riding him as the ground time is needed for them both, she says she wants what I have with Apollo and she knows how we got there, I think sitting about with him doing nothing like I did with Apollo would be a huge benefit but she needs to spend that time doing it. :)

Definitely agree Mary, it's ground work, he needs to trust Jenny on the ground, then progress to ridden work! This glazed look he gets worries me as I assume he stops listening and goes defensive. My big man occasionally has panic attacks and won't listen to me at all until I get a chance to jump off and get to his head, then he will relax and put his head into my chest, as if to say thank God you're here mum! 5 minutes and I can get back on & he's fine!
Both Winter & another mare I've been doing alot with look to me for reassurance if someonelse is riding them, I'm their "safety net"!

Mary I bet you're looking forward to tomorrows demo. Enjoy..

I am really looking forward to it Tiggy :D I did try and get Apollo in but when I mailed saying what he was like the response was something like "we don't do horses like that" lol, oh well, he's coming on nicely anyway :)

I notice that Tommy looks and shows the white of his eye, thats when I know he's going into his mood, which used to be biting but now is kicking. I was holding him (he was also tied) outside his stable to help as Jenny was trying to pick his feet out, he got the front one done then struck it out at me, not overly aggressive but he knew what he was doing and every time Jenny went near his back end he tried to kick her. I wasn't having a go as he turned towards me and I was doing nothing apart from standing by Apollo but tbh I find his behaviour would knock the confidence if I got too involved, Jenny does well doing what she does with him and a lot of it is to help me and Apollo or I doubt we'd get out the field and to the stable without Tom and Jenny, it's gutting to see her struggling, I don't know what to do but be supportive and obviously help where I can, I just don't want any of us getting hurt :(
I did email about the demo but they have enough remedial horses but was asked to leave Jenny's number in case any pulled out but doubtful now.
Has anyone seen the documentery Wild horse, Wild Ride? It's brilliant, 100 people get 100 mustangs and 100 days to train them for the mustang challenge that they have each year. Anyway it's brilliant and it saves the mustangs! I'd seen it a while back and watched it again recently, there's 2 brothers that are amazing with their horses and I found out the younger one is here at Uni doing 4th year of vet, I emailed his mum asking if he does any work over here and she mailed back asking for my number to send him and he could pop over some time! I was quite amazed and very excited as I have looked at there own site and like their idea of "No Metal" as in shoes, spurs and bits, so hope he calls ;)

sorry for the novel!!

Happy Halloween :D

Now I know some of you will go up in arms but what I do when Winter lashes out with a leg is to give her a hard enough kick with my foot that she realises she's done wrong! If you know what I mean its instant and like for like, she sometimes gets it with one of her equilibrium boots but they are only wraps so not hard. She doesn't do it now with any malice, but the flies seem to love her so she's driven mad.. Try, if you feel you can,picking up the opposite leg

This post is so much fun but it is getting very lengthy - maybe we could re- start with version 2?

Hi. I agree - getting very long. We need to restart. Was with Monty last night, at GLENEAGLES for the last time, it's gonna be tennis courts by the end of the year. He's been doing demos there since 1989. But, do you know what - Monty was on great form, running about & jumping in the air! He is awesome!! He's set himself a goal, 80 press ups for his 80th birthday. It was a really great demo, difficult horses, all dealt with wonderfully & lots of humour thrown in. Informative & entertaining. His 17 hand plus non loader was a real showman, pounding the lorry ramp with his front feet like he wanted to destroy it & the kicking horse, that acted out when touched anywhere behind the shoulders, was great. Kelly Marks gave a sensitive demonstration on how to progress a very human shy horse without Join up. Fab stuff. Cheers, Jo.

I loved the demo Jo and agree it was great. One thing I will say, I didn't think the starter was too great, it had defo had a saddle on before! I know 3 days ago they didn't have one so I guess it was the best they could get. Loved the whole thing anyway, the size of Monty compared to the old days is amazing, he must be half the size he was and he is great for a 79 yr old, it was a great night!
Will he do the demo's somewhere else in Scotland now Gleneagles is over?

I like my thread :( lol

How lucky for both of you. Must have been fabulous. Looking forward to seeing the videos if they made some.

Glad you enjoyed the demo guy's! There was a kicker at The Grange, talk about accurate she took a bag off the stick kicking and she double kicked in 1 movement, I have never seen a horse do that before!! Wow what a difference Monty made to her life in that 1/2 hour or so.
So what's Apollo's next thread going to be Mary??

Hi. I think you're wrong about the starter. Humphrey accepted his first saddle having only had a sursingle round him previously without negativity at all. Bella too was very easy that way - she's a more flamboyant type to Humphrey so you really can't "judge the book by its cover". You need to be ready for anything. Cheers, Jo.

There was a good kicker at the Scottish demo Tiggy, it kicked if anyone touched it past the front shoulders, it had a few good ones in there!!

I'm not sure what the next thread will be but I'm starting picking up his feet which he did a bit today then realised and stopped, lol! Going to start with the bags on poles etc. that Jo kindly brought to the yard, see how he copes with those, cheers x

Maybe you're right Jo, we all thought it seemed way too calm for first saddle, I know they don't all buck but the horse stood there like it been saddled many times. Was an excellent night, we all enjoyed the whole thing, I wish he'd done his western riding but I guess every one is different, the quickest 3 hours sitting down, I could have watched and watched ;)

Hello again :)
Another girl at the yard had a trainer, Joanne over today, I was very impressed watching her so she come over to our stable have a wee session with Apollo. I explained about the head collar and his feet, (which the farrier had looked at earlier and said one of his front hoof's is growing in the way!!) anyway Joanne and myself went into the stable, she said hello for a couple of minutes, attached her lead to his head collar and slipped the dually strap over his neck and down again then right over and onto his nose and fastened!! I was amazed as I have been trying this for weeks and he knows me, lol, 3 times she repeated this before leaving the dually on and taking off the normal one. She walked him forward a few steps then backed him up, ran her hand down his leg and then picked up his foot and put it down again, she did this either side before having me hold him, then she picked his foot up and held his hoof with her other hand, she did this about 3 times and repeated on the other side, after the first foot was picked up he was quite relaxed, she also held him whilst she directed me through doing it, I held each front hoof in my hand twice!!! :D
I am so proud of Apollo, he was great as always and Joanne was brilliant, I can see why Nicola had her over, I will say I did speak with her first to make sure we both wanted the same methods only to find out she has qualified and done the course with Kelly Marks, great stuff, cheers x

Wonderful, things are progressing nicely :-)

Fantastic news Mary.

OMG. Apollo has paid Mary & I the highest compliment. In not very much time he's gone from not letting any human near him to this, giving his flight equipment to a human who showed him he could trust them. I could not be more proud of either horse or owner. This is proof positive that even when humans make mistakes ( I make no secret that I'm self taught in Monty's methods ) the horses work hard to help you. That is really something. Cheers, Jo.

Thank you all :D

It's amazing Jo, I went in today, popped the dually on and other one off, got Jenny to come in and hold him and picked out his front feet! I was more nervous than he was, lol, Jenny said "he's nodding off".
I picked his back feet up twice and popped them down again either side but didn't pick them out as I couldn't quite get comfortable with it and didn't want to over do it with him but he was a star. x

See you tomorrow Jo x

I'm looking forward to meeting Joanne - perhaps she can help me hone my skills. As Monty says he does not want his students to be as good as him, he wants them to be better. Kirk got a leg caught in the fence yesterday & waited for help - how great is that! No damage to him, avoided vet fees & showed trust. If anyone can get my relationship better with him I'll be really grateful & amazed. Cheers, Jo.

Had a similar incident with Himself he was kicking the gate, I was doing nets with my other half and said to him one day he'll get caught in the gate. Then it went silent!! Yep he'd got his foot well stuck almost horizontal to the ground, no panicking just stood there with this ummm a little help here please look on his face. Was very careful not to catch us with his foot as we extracted it. Now he puts his toe on the bottom rail and rattles the gates!! He is such a goon.

I'm glad both your horses were okay, you both have great trust from them obviously :D Happy days x

Proud mum here!! :D
My boy let the farrier trim his front hoof's today, I've been picking them up every day since last week with Jenny's help (she picked out the back feet and has held him for me while I picked them out and played around with them). It paid off, 1st trim ever in 4 and a half yrs!!! Apollo has such a beautiful nature, I'm feel so lucky to have him. :D

I even took the hoof trim home, ha ha!!

Wonderful!! A magical moment and such a breakthrough; congratulations

Great! I was confident he would be good. I'll bet he feels a lot more comfortable & will have added farrier to his ever growing list of people to trust. What a journey. See you tomorrow & we can work on expanding his skills. Cheers, Jo.

Hi Everybody on this thread, I've just read it from the start- Mary and Joe in particular congratulations! What a wonderful job you are doing and everyone else for your help and support.
Monty is amazing isn't he, Kelly too. I was at Gleneagles, I was at Monty's signing stand passing the books to him.
(I was an Intelligent Horsemanship RA based in Inverness til a couple of years ago, when I had to give up due to MS)

Monty plans to be back again next year at a different venue,still to be arranged, but one suggestion was Oatride College.
Anyway Mary and Jo keep up your brilliant work, I shall follow it with great interest now I have found my way back onto the Uni.
All the best to you all. Val.

Thanks Val, not sure about everyone else who's posted on this thread, but I just share my experiences & the ways I've found to solve problems with the horses I'm in contact with. What works for one may not work with another, but as long as there is no violence involved then it's a bit of trial & error. But having other peoples ideas on how they've got over a similar thing gives me something to try with mine when I seem to hit a brick wall (if you know what I mean), it's also nice to have the encouragement of everyone here. On that note Thank you guys & girls for your words of wisdom over my posts on Winter..

Hi all,
I'm new (7th day now) to the Uni and was reading some threads until I found this one. I'm a french canadian from Montreal, so excuse me if my english comes out wrong sometimes.

I have experience with very nervous and/or aggressive horses so I got hooked to this thread right away. At some times I had tears in my eyes, at others I was so happy with the progress.

Mary I admire your commitment to this horse of yours, you have good times with him ahead of you. Keep up what your doing. Go slow and work on one thing at a time and you'll see how generous your horse can be.

Jo you just wow me. What you're doing for Mary and Appolo and Jenny and Tommy is so generous and good, it's great to read about it. Thanks!

From what I've read here, I believe Tommy could kill someone. Jenny is putting herself and other people at risk because Tommy needs a much more experienced owner for some time. Hope all turns out well for her and Tommy.

Thank you for sharing this adventure with us.

Pierre

Hi, Apollo is now wearing a rug - mayor leap. That's really good. Tommy, I'm not so sure, he seems to be building a relationship with someone other than his owner. My Max is now in this yard & maybe he can change the balance. He needs to be there because he has a vets hair cut. But may be he can throw the Tommy stuff into balance. We shall see what this little guy can do. I'm up there tomorrow- coz he's mine & even though I have every confidence I still need to keep a check on my boy - he chose me for a reason! Vets gave him a silly hair cut for a pony that lives out 24/7 - no problem., he needs time to re-grow. Can give him that. Will keep you posted. Cheers, Jo.

Thank you Val and thank you Pierre :D It's been amazing so far, Apollo is now letting me put a rug on him, he had no reaction at all really when I did it, he's a great horse!
I've just ordered a medium rug as he only has a rain cover just now but it's great for preparing him and for me to work with getting it on him (with Mary from the yard and Jenny's patience also, much thanks) and it's another addition to his clothing collection!
I have been walking him around the yard and doing some back up, standing still and approaching scary big bags as he almost run me down going into the field over a bit tarp blowing so we need a little distance, he didn't kncok me down though, he went off to the side when he tripped me :)
Jenny has been joining me in doing some ground manners with Tommy and he has been as good as gold, I think they'll get there with time and the right training and as long as we stay safe and aware at all times and just keep being consistent.

:D

Can I just say also, I don't feel Jenny's putting anyone in danger, no one has to be up close and personal with Tom accept Jenny but I hold him while she picks his feet out sometimes and he's fine, sometimes he'll try and nip her hence the holding but he's not trying to kick her, I think he was used to being outside having his feet done so when he's outside now he's fine. He is a worrier and it's more that than anything else. I'd be pretty hurt if I come on and read people thought I wasn't worried about the safety of others as this is not the case, cheers ;)

Hi Mary,

"I'd be pretty hurt if I come on and read people thought I wasn't worried about the safety of others as this is not the case" Hope it wasn't what I wrote that gave you that impression. If it is then I'm sorry it's not what I meant.

Also I'm really impressed with your progress with Apollo.

Have fun and stay safe!

Thank you Pierre :D I think it's what myself and Jo have wrote previously that gives the impression Tommy is beyond help or something, not the case at all, I get carried away when something happens but I think all horses can be a danger to us in the wrong situation and I am a worrier! I have seen much worse than Tommy in my younger days, I think he's the type of horse that needs a calmer, his calmer had been stopped when he was being overly aggressive, like myself he is a worrier also but since he went back on the calmer he has settled down again and once he has some manners trained in we're hoping for great things from Tommy, he just needs to relax a bit and let us do the worrying, Jenny is doing great with him, he is not the easiest horse but he's learning. :D cheers

Hi. My concerns regarding Tommy were not so much the horse but the inexperience of the people dealing with him. I am about 40 miles away & so can offer support, only not on a daily basis. I understand he is now back on calmer & that has cooled the situation. This is progress & I'm sure in the long run Tommy will show great improvement. As some of you more experienced people will know, thoroughbreds tend to be excitable & very alert to their handlers feelings. Tommy has shown he will progress towards more violent responses when he finds his needs are not being met. This is likely to be frustration on his part. Very much like an angry child. So long as his handlers keep their knowledge ahead of their actions they will be safe. Be confident but be careful. Cheers, Jo.

I wish you well Mary and hope your horse journey continues to be happy. Take care.

Good luck with your horses, Mary! I wish you all the best in your future with them.

Thank you and good luck to you both and everyone else with their fur babies :) x

What happened with Mary and Jo? I just read the thread after not looking on the forum for ages - everything seemed great and the story so moving ... and then this? Lizzie

On reflection this is clearly something deeply personal between the people involved - please ignore my message above. Not the place to discuss - apologies. Lizzie