I find it strange that she should have reacted with a rodeo session out of nowhere, i would be very inclined to think that something you didn't notice caused her pain at that time, it could have been an insect sting or bite, or something caught on the saddle pad or her skin under her girth got pinched......
If that was the case, she then thinks that she's going to get hurt again so naps not to go down the drive.
It sounds like she's been doing very well so far & i don't think you should be pushing her too much more BUT you need to address the issue with not wanting to go down the
drive - i would take her back a few steps & have her following another horse until she's comfortable again as she sounds like a very sweet girl.
You don't want to create a battle when making it easy for her makes life easy for yourself.
I cuddle all my horses & yes, sometimes they get cheeky, but do you want a friend or an automaton???
The fact that she feels free to express herself when she's not happy i my opinion is a good thing, it means she trusts you to listen to her.
If she's bucking cos she's just got a bit too much energy, lunge or long rein her before you ride, assuming you've had the saddle fit checked & teeth etc to make sure there is nothing hurting her.

Don't forget to enjoy your lovely big baby & keep us posted on your progress. Good Luck x

She's all physically ok, it was definitely my problem not her as it always is the human! I think because she gets a lot of attention that doesn't surround work this particular time she was tense coming in from the field and I don't think I was tuned in enough, I tacked her up quite prompt and normally we tack up leisurely. I think she was telling me off really. I also think she has a strong attachment to her 'herd' which is not just her particular herd but also around the yard there are a number of horses so she's got close company even when she's stabled 'alone'. There was another situation as well so let me know what you think of this - after the above patch we then went for a ride like you suggested behind a more experienced horse and she was ok however when we got to the top of the drive we met a friend on her little gelding and we suddenly wanted to kill him! We went pushing into him double barrelling him and when our friend got past she was constantly jogging sideways to bite him and body crush him. She was not bothered about me it was definitely about him as we didn't buck or rear to get me off we were just dancing around trying to smother him. She's turned out with just mares and even with those guys she is very playful and strikes out in a very mareish manner. That is one area I've left alone for a moment but I'd like to be able to go past other horses and not have a problem. My problem is I adore her so although I'm trying to do everything by the rules I'm so clouded by worry that I'm doing the right thing! This afternoon she couldn't find her herd as they are turned loose on many acres so although she called for them she wouldn't leave me at the gate so I went trekking off with her right behind me to find them! She's so trusting in me and I'm scared that even though I've done this before I've never had a totally untouched horse and she's a bit different!

oh Haa Haa Haa, sorry but i have one like that!!!
She's quite a dominant mare then isn't she!!
Mine is an Alpha mare as was her mum, she tends to hate geldings unless she loves them - not really any in between with her.
Try putting her on Hormonise or alternately just the Agnus Castus seeds to see if it helps her. Hormonise is liquid & gets into their system very quickly.
Yep, Alpha mares are different!

Thanks for that I'll look it up! For the horse that hung at the back when we first saw her we now call her. Princess Harriet! I give her limestone flour and seaweed and first time she tasted it she picked up her bucket and threw it across her field. She then does this head tucking thing round to the opposite side your on but still looks at you out the corner of her eye. Like a human version of a nose snub-It's most strange! Anyway thanks for yours suggestions I'll give it a go!

Hi Becky, just a few thoughts on your post, started within your initial problem this you answered in your second post. "it was definitely my problem not her as it always is the human! I think because she gets a lot of attention that doesn't surround work this particular time she was tense coming in from the field and I don't think I was tuned in enough, I tacked her up quite prompt and normally we tack up leisurely. I think she was telling me off really." All youngsters that i start are always taught a groundwork routine on the ground simple stuff like moving away on a rope stopping starting switching off switching back on again,its then you an see what kind of mood that are in at the moment and if its safe to carry on getting on or that we really do need to do some more work on the ground until the horse is paying attention, your horse needs to be standing still and relaxed when you do get on, you have much work to do with a young horse witch is going to see ups and downs.
On the subject of alpha mares: Maybe she is a complete opposite of what i would call an alpha mare and that she is actually at the other end of the scale the fact she will strike out at other horses and play up when you see another horse on a ride maybe her own insecurities with other horses and that she is actually just trying to protect herself! Just a thought

Thanks for that I think you might be right! She is the first mare I've started that has been moved into a new herd and a new home for her education. Funnily enough recently the herd has shrunk as a few have got new homes and I have caught her a couple of times out in the field on her own with her pals in the next field over so it looks like she has been 'thrown out' as such by the herd leader. The herd leader has just been rehomed so I wonder if now the score will change. They do have lots of scuffles as she comes in regularly with minor cuts to her legs. I do do loads of ground work and moving off the lead rope etc however I think I answered another problem yesterday in that I popped her saddle in to long line and she was ok but when I went to scratch her belly back towards her hind leg she gave me a look. She's been with us for a few months now but in her last home she was kept in all winter in a huge barn and she was for quite a while on silage.... So obviously not great! I know the behaviours has only just emerged but I was wondering could she possibly have a sore gut that is only just coming to light or maybe a stomach ulcer? And it's only now that's she's familiar with riding that that in itself isn't causing enough of a distraction for her to move through the discomfort? Her back is sound but a chiropractor might not necessarily pick up on any stomach issues? Any thoughts?

There are a couple of alarm bells going off in my head here, but I need to ask a couple of things

(1) Are you sure she was fed on SILAGE or do you mean HAYLAGE?
(2) These "minor cuts" to her legs...are these being inflicted by another horse?
(3) You've agreed with Beryl that sh's alpha style but you are also considering Kande's point that she might be opposite - she can't be both :-) I'm wondering if now you've had time to think about it some more you feel clearer in your own mind whether she is wanting to be in charge of everything or is being defensive?

Looking forward to hearing more about her

Hi. At 3 years old it is most unlikely that your filly is alpha. This is defensive not alpha. These are not tantrums but panic attacks. My advice would be to change her living arrangements because she is being bullied by 1 or more of her herd. Put her with some gentle geldings & you will find her to be a very different individual. Good luck. Jo.

"when we got to the top of the drive we met a friend on her little gelding and we suddenly wanted to kill him! We went pushing into him double barrelling him and when our friend got past she was constantly jogging sideways to bite him and body crush him. She was not bothered about me it was definitely about him as we didn't buck or rear to get me off we were just dancing around trying to smother him" =FLIRTING
I hate to be the bearer of bad news to a devoted mother but your daughter is a LITTLE TART. I know this is not the news a devoted mother wants to hear about there little girl but that's the way it is... However this is not the type of behavior that should happen in front of there devoted mom.
Hope you do not hate me for ever for pointing this out.HAHA

As the above post didn't really point out anything of substance for yourself, though it did make me giggle over my morning coffee. I would like to say just keep up what you are doing you will get her attention and it will come from long hours spent on the ground,she is still very young and its a long way forward, I totally agree working with a big young mare can be a lot more daunting than working with a pony.
Attention attention attention. but as you have worked with some ponies and have had sucses with them you do know there is a way forward.attention attention attention.being the herd leader on the ground is a lot easier that being the leader when you are on there back.lots of flexing on the ground to the left to the right to left to the right, then when your on flexing flexing, having good control of the horses head can go a long way to having control of the brain that sits inside it!
I apologize again for calling your girl a little tart, as i can now see when i look at your picture that she is not little at all....

At 3 years old, she can be alpha, but that doesn't mean that she's not also defensive, mine was & still is, being alpha means they are programmed to take care of everybody, that doesn't meant that they don't get frightened too!
She's taking on the other mares in the field with the description of the striking out etc, if she was a low ranking mare, she wouldn't be taking them on this way, she would be keeping away from them, you say she does end up out of the herd, this is the older mare who's had enough of her rude antics & has sent her out as punishment, thats what horses do.
Jo, you are right, she's scared of the gelding, but again, if she wasn't a higher ranking mare, she would keep her distance, not pile in to make him move away from her, if she can make him move, she will be fine, it's when that can't & the gelding stands his ground they get scared & go at them even more.

The other thing they can do is if they decide they really love this horse, they can want to cuddle up so close you get your leg crushed between them!

To the silage comment... No I'm not joking... She arrived covered in her own faeces which I had to cut away and apply baby oil. She was brought up like a cow rather than a horse as such with a big herd full of geldings and mares. Trouble I have now is I can't change her herd arrangement it's not my call as she is technically owned by someone else however think this is going to change so she may be moved and have a more low key time turned out with a couple of neighbours rather than 5 other Bolshy mares.
To Kande Horse *shock horror* how dare you! Haha I think you're right- she's not had contact with a gelding for a long time and maybe she's was keen to get 'familiar' - I wouldn't mind if I wasn't then trying to do a balancing act on 16.2hh worth of amorous filly! I think everyone is right in the fact that she actually just isn't old enough to know what she is or where she ranks.
There has since been a new mare introduced who has been expelled now for over a week and Hatti's herd are chasing her away. Hatti herself is (when I turn her out and her herd is away and the new mare is pacing by the gate alone) flirtatious but also aggressive. She squeals and arches her neck then whips round to double barrel the new mare before whizzing off to the sanctuary or her new herd!
The time pressure is about to be taken off doing this mare if I am able to buy her properly for myself and I think I will let her settle and just take my time settling her for quiet hacks out, introducing her to geldings whilst on the ground and doing ground work. She has just turned 3 this month... We usually don't start until a horse is 4 but as she's physically matured she's able to be ridden but doesn't mean she's emotionally all that capable as we know.

Thanks for all your help! Such a great resource here!

From
The Tarts Mother.
(Kande Horse- made me laugh over my morning cup of coffee also)

Should have said familiar herd not new herd!

Sorry forgot to answer Vicci's second question. These cuts are up the inside of her thigh so the most likely thing is she's playing/fighting and lifting legs to kick and slicing herself with the inside of her hooves. But they are ultimately a result of general high jinks- luckily nothing too serious a bit of aloe Vera gel and sudocream can't fix but still irritating!

I admit to not having read this through in detail, so forgive me if I am repeating something already said.
Just wanted to point out that it needs to be taken into account that at three a lot of mares goes through something similar to puberty. Some of them can become quite unrecognizeable from what they have been as two year olds, and quite a handful, esp. when they get in heat.

Thanks for the extra info Becky. Couple of things to consider

(1) Silage is dreadful for horses so thank god she's not still on it - my farmer friend says it's "loopy juice" where horses are concerned. But the more worrying aspect of silage is that it can contain soil bacteria. This may have led her to feel uncomfortable/colicky in the past and maybe she is prone to some discomfort now and again
(2) I am with Jo re: bullying. It is not "high jinx" or playfullness - think about it for a minute. One of a horses goals in the wild is too survive. Sustaining injuries makes them vulnerable - they will avoid it if they can. But if they have no choice in their herd set up these incidents can happen and they can also contribute to a grumpy horse.
(3) The behaviour with the gelding - whatever the reason for it, it is not a behaviour that you want under saddle and out on a hack - it is dangerous. Again, if she is in regular conflict with others this can lead to chronic stress and all its associated behavioural issues.
:
She is still a young horse and there is no rush to ask her to deal with everything all at once. Her emotional wellbeing is critical to her continued training.

I really hope you sort the ownership out for this mare,You will have a great journey together. Just turning three!!! ok apart from ups and downs you have had!and there will be more, you have a blank canvas to work with,and it really sounds like your heading in the right direction. Good luck

Yes, at 3 they do seem to go through a sort of puberty stage, or even younger, they can be a bit of a nightmare when the seasons get stronger & don't know how to handle them, thats why i suggested Hormonise as it balances the hormones - we all know how human teenagers get with raging hormones!!!!

Thanks for suggestions! Am sussing out hormonise definitely! With the lead mare gone I don't think she's being bullied any longer- I've not seen her apart from the rest so think that's settled itself.
She's in good grass and good quality hard feed so she should balance out but am going to have her checked and see if there has been any trauma caused to her guts because of it. Will keep you all updated!

Becky - there was something nagging in the back of my mind about the behaviour with the gelding; as I am not an expert by any means in breeding issues there was something bothering me about Kande's explanation. I realise it was lighthearted Kande re: "flirting/tart" etc. but I have gone over my notes from my Stud Practice course at Intelligent Horsemanship, run by Ian Vandebergh and that's when your mare's behaviour was described very clearly (I knew I'd read it somewhere lol!).
:
Far from flirting she was in fact telling him in no uncertain terms she was not interested/not available. Even though he is a gelding (not stallion) there may have been aspects of him that were too bold in her opinion and she told him so :-)
:
As I said before, it's not appropriate for her to behave like this when out and about but she is still young and I can see you are working really hard with her.
:
Keep us posted, I'm looking forward to hearing your progress.

My explanation was lighthearted and certainly not set in stone,what we do both agree on is this is not the sort of behavior than can be tolerated when she is being ridden,flirting or fighting.One thing i do know for certain is she wasn't trying to kill him! If you have ever had the unfortunate experience of seeing a horse trying to kill another horse or two horses trying to kill each other,the memory will stay with you for ever.Anyhow stick with it Becki
i really look forward to seeing how things progress

Yes vicci, that is correct, she's telling him to sod off away from her!!!! I have one like it & if the gelding doesn't go away, she will become more forceful!
It certainly isn't an easy behaviour to "sort out" as the mare is an entire, You have to work with it just as you have to work at keeping everyone safe with a stallion!
You don't become blasé with a stallion as you know his instincts are to cover a mare no matter what, equally, this mare is having none of it, so don't expect her to stand like a lamb next to a gelding if she feels uncomfortable or threatened. You need to give her what she considers to be a safe space apart.If you try to force her to be too close, you will push her adrenalin way up & create more problems, just respect her point of view & work with her!

A bit confused about your "entire mare" Beryl is this what a mare is before its been given hormonise ?

Of course 'trying to kill him' is quite a loose definition! Perhaps in the same way one might want 'to kill' your partner when they don't out the dishes away properly...lol! She's now going to be coming to live with me and my friend has a little gelding who is lovely and calm, we decided we would walk them out together in hand with plenty of space but so she can just chill out and hope that being in a new environment anyway will act as a distraction so she doesn't focus on him so much. Hopefully she'll slowly come round to the idea she can hack out and walk out with a chap and know he's not going to try and chat her up!

So Happy that she is coming to live with you, so must you be i,m sure. Remember this is a whole new scene for her now so don,t be in a rush,a stable social/home life for a horse is very important,walking out with the gelding is a great idea,
will she also be turned out with him?

If he's a non threatening gelding from her point of view, she's likely to love him to bits, but it's her view that counts, not ours.
Kande Horse, all mares are entire all their lives, no matter what you give them!
Some mares have strong "marish" tendencies & are strong leader types & some are quieter & lower ranking.
A stallion is entire because he's got his testicles & his instincts are to survive & breed, those are the same sort of instincts intact in the mare; mares are not spayed like cats & dogs, so have all their sex organs in place & so their reproductive hormones are "normal", this what "Entire" means.
A Gelding has had his testicles removed & this in turn stops the hormones being made that incite the sexual urge to reproduce.
Hormonise is a liquid form of the herb Agnus Castus which has been used for centuries the help balance the hormones & calm things down; it can be used for males as well as females for aggression etc.
I found it worked extremely well on my mare when she was a youngster before her seasons settled down & it worked so much better than any calmer product.
I still feed it to both of my mares as they are both Laminitics & have sweet itch, these are all to do with imbalance of the hormones & immune system. It is also very good for helping ponies with Cushings which is also hormonal & affects the immune system.
Hope that helps x

Thanks for the explanation Beryl

Great news Beck, I wish you all the best, keep us posted :-)

Hmmm... maybe I should consider Hormonise for my two "sweetitchers".
Another hormone product is Monk Pepper. Esp. for very mareish mares but they won't always eat it.

Vitex agnus-castus, also called Vitex, Chaste Tree, Chasteberry, Abraham's Balm or Monk's Pepper is the active ingredient in Hormonise. So same same.It got its name monkspepper because it was given to monks to stop them fiddling with the choir boys.
I see no reason at all that agnus-castus is going to help with sweet-itch,so would look into this before you start messing about with your horses hormones.

I am enjoying this thread and have now learnt a brilliant non horse fact from Kande Horse...!
She's going to be turned out with a neighbour not with anyone actually in with her. She'll also be stabled in half boarded half barred boxes so she can see everyone but can't take their ears off! For first 2 weeks I will leave her to get to know her stable companions and her turn out neighbour then start walking out. Her stable neighbour is a gelding apparently. Sounds like a silly idea but if I put travel boots on her back legs and she boots the partition in an attempt to kick him do we reckon this'll lessen the blow? I've stabled at this yard before but know I won't be best tenant if she destroys the wooden boards... I wonder if my life will be easier doing this and dealing with the extreme look of disdain she'll give me for wrapping her up or whether I should just pray to the stable gods that she doesn't make a hole....

Travel boots won't make any difference to the partition but could cause your mare to be injured when they fall down / off her feet, so i wouldn't do it.

Sweet itch is also an immune problem; the immune system way over reacts to the saliva in the midge bites - both of mine are laminitics & have sweet itch. Laminitis, Insulin resistance, Equine Metabolic Syndrome, cushings are all inter related.

I agree with Beryl,boots won't do much really. Some rubber or old carpet tacked to the boards would deaden the sound the rubber obviously would absorb the impact better!!
Becky have look at the biting & kicking post currently on the forum, can't remember the full title or who's posted but may also be helpful.
Beryl, on the sweet itch front, my big man suffers with a very greasy coat and "dandruff" in his mane & tail. He only scratches his mane, tail & face so lives in a hoody all summer, I've tried bathing him at least once a month but it didn't help very much! What I have found is that the Vitamin my lot have has helped along with the hoody!!

Hi. Car mats are good source of rubber. They can be bought very cheaply from scrap yards, are easily cut to size, can be doubled up etc. & also not difficult to store. There are multiple uses for old tyres too. Cheers, Jo.

Kicki & Tiggy, I've just started using the new sweet itch lotion called "Itching?" made by Flints Yard - It's really good, very soothing, as soon as i started putting it on Ebony's mane, her ears went forward & she also stood quietly while i applied it round her coronary bands where she gets very long flakes of sore skin & usually lifts her feet, moves away & generally hates me putting stuff on them Libby also loves it on the ends of her ears & under her armpits & even she put her ears forward!!!!!!!! Gosh, it must feel nice, no piranha faces!!!
It is made from Margosa in an Aloe Vera base & contains no deet. It targets midges, not flies, so i still use a DEET fly spray as well as their snuggy bug rugs.
I haven't bathed much this year, but i did change to using a Lavender wash which is a no rinse wash for the odd wash.

Yes, Monks pepper is another name for Agnus Castus, i use those seeds nowadays as both mine will now eat them, someone suggested putting them through a coffee grinder & that seems to have made then more acceptable.

Maybe we should start a sweet itch thread here? ;)
Thanks for the tip, Beryl! I think I have tried half of everything there is on the market. So far "KillItch" (Carr & Day & Martin) which is a lotion based on benzyl benzoate, in combination with a mix called "Bye Bye Itch" (Hilton Herbs) containing buck wheat for antihistamine. And of course a bug rug! Best prevention so far. I hear they are developing a vaccine but thta has yet to be seen.

I also use the Itch Stop Complete, mainly on his face!! I've now got to clip the top of his tail, must've had a really bad itch today!!! If it's a nice day tomorrow will give him a bath!

yes Kicki, i tried all those to start with & found them rubbish.
Up to now i've been using the Itch Stop, but it is very strong, designed to be used once a week, Ebby gets it on her nostrils, lips, everywhere & the Itch stop is so strong, it makes her skin peel, but she does love this Itchin? lotion!
For the flies, i use Naf Off DEET Power spray.
The vaccine trials resulted in the BioEos (Bio-Plus) capsules; for more info check out the links below.

http://www.sweet-itch.co.uk/

http://itchyhorse.co.uk/

Obviously, the capsules can be given by the owner rather than vaccines that need the vet to administer them.

The Itch Stop is brill if the get a sore, it gets rid of the crusty, nasty bit & accelerates healing!
Each has it's own place & needs can vary throughout the season, so i play it by ear.

I wanted to wash tails yesterday, but i was so tired i fell asleep & couldn't wake up!!!

Beryl, there is new vaccine research being done that has nothing to do with the BioEos as far as I know.
I've tried the BioEos capsules a couple of years ago, but I couldn't tell if they had any effect on my horse so in the end it felt too expensive for an uncertain result.
I stick with what I listed above. I can tell for sure the midges avoid landing on surfaces treated with KillItch as we were out riding yesterday evening and had a cloud of them around our heads. They only settled on Nalle's ears, not on the neck/poll etc where I had rubbed the lotion.
For flies in general I use UltraShield, which repels most things, but it is toxic so need to be handled with care. (Switch was the best against midges but is off the market in Sweden.)
But I have been religious about the rug this year and in the end that seems to be the main factor in managing this.

Ah, where is that vaccine research happening?
I've not bothered with pills etc as where i am, i have woods at the bottom of the field, & hedge along the top where the bridlepath is & the midges are horrendous & the horseflies are worse there than anywhere else for miles!!!
Ebony is far too badly affected to take the chance of not using the rug; when i first got her she was awful, she destroyed everything in her wake as she was so dreadfully uncomfortable, my vet said get a Boett blanket, she's had 2 but then i got the snuggy bug rugs & i went to put the Boett on when i was going to wash the other one & her eyes were out on stalks, she did not want it on & she's so much better about putting on the Snuggy, it's obviously a lot more comfy to wear.
I don't know if Z-Itch is the same as Switch, but it contains Permethrin & i just don't want it near me or my horses; I react to many things put on my skin & Libby's often been ill with bad reactions to things, so i have to be very careful what i put on her.
Mine can tolerate leaving the rug off most days, but it's always put on in the afternoon before the midges come out, if it's a very still, muggy day & the midges are likely to be out , then it stays on during the day too. I agree, that rugging is the main protection for them.
As with everything, what suits one horse, won't work on another one.

"Ah, where is that vaccine research happening? "
I admit to being abit scetchy on that part. I am certain I did read about it while researching earlier this year - maybe it was in one of the TheHorse.com articles? But the key word here is "research" - I doubt they are near any solution there.
.
Z-Itch is probably something like Switch anyway. I'm not fond of it either but it did work with the midges.

The only vaccine research i knew of was at the Sweet Itch centre in Wales, but thats where the capsules came from.