We need a little help. We have a 2 1/2 year old warmblood thoroughbred cross. We took Montys Join up and long longing courses last year partly to learn how to train him. Things were going really well. He has been started and will walk / trot under saddle when coaxed. Very calm but stubborn. Our problem is now he has no repect. He has absolutely no fear of us and does not respond to increased energy or being sent away. We do this successfully with our other horses. He will follow you anywhere but will not move on his own unless he chooses to. When we try to long line he walks towards us or refuses to move. He has become very difficult to train with the dually as well because he just stands. We know now that we handled him far too much as a baby. I am wondering if we need to stop training him for a few months.
Any ideas?
Thank you!
Hi
I am not sure how often you are training him but it sounds like he thinks he is the lead horse instead of you leaving him alone may make matters worse
I would put him in the round pen with the dually on and have either a lung whip or a wood pole with a plastic bag or a rag on it. I would then ask him to go away from you and tap his back feet with the plastic bag as an Incentive your horse has to know that when you ask him to do something he needs to do it. Keep calm and don't talk to him while he is in the round pen what you should be doing is another join up which means you need to get the horse adrenaline up but not yours
After you get a join up and he is following you put him up for the day and give him a good rub
I would then leave him alone for a few days and bitter to do any training. I would the do another join up and put him up. The third time you do the join up start training again
Cheers
Hello
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I have not experienced anything like you describe to the extent to which you describe it, but my rescue horse went through a stage where he tried this kind of behaviour on to see how it might work for him during our training sessions.
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I was new to Monty Roberts back then, and did a similar thing to what Dennis suggests here but used what Stacy Westfall calls a "Stick and String" (it also had a bit of leather in the end of the string which I removed so as not to accidently sting Renacer with it). This worked for me. No hitting of course - just using the tool for a que to encourage movement and the going away.
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Before I knew who Monty Roberts was, I used to use this "Stick and String" tool as an extension of my arm to teach my horses ques for certain movements while on the ground. I taught my horses that if I tap on the point on the hip, they are required to turn and face me. If I tap them on the back of the hind leg above the hocks, they are required to move forward. Over time, I decreased the pressure applied in these ques to simply pointing. I can now point to Renacer's hip and he will face me. If I point to his hocks, he will move forward.
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I don't know how or even if this kind of ground work fits in with Monty Roberts' techniques because I am not far enough into my learning yet. So I am not trying to push any forign training method onto you, but thought I would share that background information with you because that may also have been why it didn't take me long to overcome the issue of Renacer challenging my request to move forward during long lining etc. We went back and reviewed our basic ground work lessons that he already knew.
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I understand that your situation is a lot more pronounced though than mine was, but the concept behind what I did and what Dennis is suggesting is the same, and I think it will work for you.
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Good luck and I hope it works out for you.
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Kind regards,
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Gen
Hi everybody, I am glad to read about this issue today as I am dealing with a similar behavior or better with a similar point in training progress with my two years plus four month old Irish Sport Horse. I was searching for the !"fast forward" as I call it :-) He was difficult to train to trott in hand and very difficult to send off into a trott, let alone a canter during his third or forth Long Lining session. I have been thinking about what I could do a lot. I pulled him forward desperately and pushed him in the long lines. Then I just said to myself: look into the mirror ! It must be you ! So I went back to the stable, into the round pen with him and I behaved very motivated and "awake". I realised that I had slowed him down all these month to teach him to behave calmly. I bought him in January as an entire colt - very quick he was ! He has been gelded and became calm and slow... too slow. So I walked in that roundpen with confidence and I was THINKING forward very mush. I used a "carrot stick" that thing with the rope on it to help him to understand just with a little signal throwing the rope BEHIND him - as much as possible or just passing on him without causing any pain. I also kept him near by the fence to keep him from "walking like a crap" because of my cues with the stick+rope. When he started trotting when being asked I watched out to be very positiv and faster than him but he may not be faster then me. I praised him and rewarded with a good rub when he started immediately and stopped when asked. It was a big succsess. At the end of the session I did not need to cue with the stick anymore. We trotted together back to the stable. The next session two days later was to take a POSITIVE walk between the fields and whenever I feld he was happy to trott, I asked him to. It worked again! I will go on like this. It was just me, beeing toooo calm sloooowing him down. He had no reason to take off if I ask him - starting off more or less like an old elephant ! :-) I would love to learn if you tried that one and, if it works. Cheers, VioBerlin. P.S. I am wondering how my first Long Lining session will go after the in hand training...
Hi As513 sounds as if all that cuddling and handling since he was a baby has made your fellow just so quiet and joined up with you. Being a warmblood no doubt adds to this very placid, pushy, unresponsive behaviour. It is lovely to have him so quiet but you do now have a challenge with training him. Like Dennis I do not think it would be wise to give him time out as he will not unlearn the lessons he has already learned. I think the dually could be the answer. I know you are using it and he is not responding but are you giving him enough discipline with it. Being a warmblood he has a rather high tolerance to discomfort so you will need to be tougher on the dually for discipline than with a less docile breed. Usining Monty's techniques really try to move him around on the ground with the dually - teach him to back up, forwared, yield to pressure etc. It is most important now to get him to move in the direction you wish him to when you instruct him to do so. Once you achieve some favourable responses then as Vio Berlin recommends take him for walks with the dually and encourage him to trot with you then stop etc. Maybe take him out of his safe environment too so he responds better to you.
Persistence and time will make the difference and this is a nicer problem to deal with than to quieten and correct an abused horse so good luck with him.
Thank you everyone for all of your great advice. His behavior actually got worse this past week. He is turned out with several other geldings and has become aggressive when strangers go into the field to retrieve their horses. Due to this issue we have tried to handle him daily and be very firm with what we are asking. He clearly thinks he is the boss of the field. Using two of us, one on the lines and one aggressively pushing him forward we have had some success. He turned at us several times but with a lunge whip and an assertive posture we kept him moving. Normally he really is very sweet. I think he is a teenager and has forgotten his place. We don't want anyone to get hurt. The comments about the warmblood breed are very interesting. We have several rescued thoroughbreds and are constantly decreasing our energy to calm them!!! He is the opposite!!! We will keep working. We appreciate all the advice.
I recognize that behavior! "The terrible Threes".
I'd say it is typical for a lot of horses his age. They are coming into a phase where they (in the wild) are strong enough to care for themselves and need to fight for a place in the flock. (Compare with the meeker two year old, who stay out of trouble to avoid being kicked out and hurt.)
I'm sure some will be worse than others and they probably need firm handling to understand that their place.
Do be careful! I'm sure he will come around, but it might take a couple of months.
Hi It is quite a releif to hear that I am not the only one having a problem with a youngest going forward in the round pen. I have a 2 1/2 year old New Forest pony, we got her striaght of the forest 18 mouths ago, she has come a long well, works well in hand and good ground manners, but when I take her in the pen she dosen't want to go forward, It is comical as she just looks at me as to say " and " typical teenager, I have tryed "join up" nothing!! but that could be that she has already that trust in me, but longi lining she has no drive what so ever we can just about manage a very calm walk,she'll turn/change direction nicely, but anything else is a real strungle,If anyone has any tips/advise I would be gratful, She has done so well so far I don't want to cause any future problems
Oh Maggie, that makes me laugh ! :-) I will go back in the round pen this weekend with my Irisch 2 years and 4 month old "not mover on long lines" - with a plan. I will put a comment with the result in here next week. cross your fingers for me - and yes - it feels so good not to be the only one ! Cheers, VioBerlin
Greetings
With everything that I have heard or read about a horse that refuses to do what is asked in the proper manner, either does not understand what is being asked or does not respect the person who is doing the asking. While we would all like to have a quite compliant horse, most horses will need lots of consistent training to modify their instinctive behavior. Horses either want to lead or follow. A horse that wants to be boss can be most challenging to train. I know that Monty is a big believer in using geldings for pleasure horses, thus eliminating the moodiness or a mare or the aggressive behavior of a stallion.
If you go back and look at the lessons on the giddy-up rope it is obvious that the horse does not respect the rider and is needlessly afraid to enter the arena. Who knows why, but I don't think many of use would have though about using a giddy-up rope. So if your horse will not move forward and balks at your requests you need to 'persuade' him so he understands clearly what you want and if he will not comply you need to make it uncomfortable for him (Hint, use a giddy-up rope) If you become frustrated stop the lesson, you will only do harm to your horse to continue.
Sorry if this sounds like a lecture but blaming the age of the horse or the breed of the horse on their bad behavior is an injustice to the horse. They want to learn, but you have to have the skill to teach them properly.
Good luck all
Cheers
Hi everyone,
I love this forum. Lots of great ideas I talked with the young lady who feeds and cares for our horses today about specific bad behavior. Our 2 1/2 year old is turned out with 6 older geldings. She let's them all in at once to go to the barn and wait for her to let them in to be fed one at a time. He chases everyone down and then goes back to get her. He pins his ears back and tries to herd her faster. She now takes the broom with her (he hates the broom for some reason) and pushes him back when he try's to herd her. She also took him in the ring with a plastic bag on a stick and got him to move better than we did by being VERY big and aggressive. He respond well. Came at her when lunging but backed down when she didn't. We feel more hopeful after talking to her. He clearly has gotten too big for his britches. Pardon the expression!! We will work more with him this weekend and stand tall!!!
Thank you for all of your great advice.
Ashley
Hi Everybody,
I am brand new to the Uni, but having great fun. I have always had trouble getting my 5 year old, Nez Perce Horse gelding to move, but I realized a while ago that I am a very calm slow person. My husband jokes that I'm the only person he knows that can put a horse to sleep while I'm working with it. I have to get my energy up to get my boy moving. I watch him play and move on the pasture and I can see that he has plenty of energy, I'm the one slowing him down. I have used the idea of a cue to move him forward and one to get him to face me too. It works well as long as I keep my energy up.
About three year olds... When my gelding was three, he challenged me almost daily for about a month. We just worked on joining up each time he challenged me and we developed a wonderful, close relationship. It is a marvelous tool.
Sue
Hi all - I noticed on reading all these great comments that we have another Maggie contributing which is great. Hi Maggie from Maggie. I will try to change mine to MaggieF to avoid any confusion in the future.
Hi all,
This was most interesting for me. I thought I have been going crazy.
My horse, MY Star, has been acting so nuts lately, I couldn't figure out what has been going on.
On Thursday afternon, I had her in the corral and was doing some training, I got a little tired and asked my husband to take over, with instructions, and what did she do?
She became so aggressive she reared up and flipped over onto her back while Paul still had the long line in his hand.
When she got back to her feet she came over to him so docile as if she wondered what was that, she really hates the dually halter. Perhaps it reminds her of when she was abused?
On Saturday morning when I went in to groom her and let her out for the day there was blood on her matts. I panicked and called the vet right away.
Carl was on call, he told me what to watch for and I did. Nothing extraorinary happened, no more blood from any edifice.
He told me it could have been from some brusing she received when she fell. It is filtered through the kidneys.
I have checked her completly, touched her everywhere, no swelling or soreness.
We just had her teeth floated, (filed), and my goodness you would have thought we were killing her. She has had this done before and has not given anyone a hard time at all.
She has just turned three and it's like I don't even know her.
All of a sudden she won't come to me or follow me, is not comfortable with me. I feel as if she is saying, you allowed them to hurt me and now I don't trust you.
Is there such a thing as the terrible three's, never heard of that?
I don't know what kind of answers I'm going to get but I'm at my witts end with her. Too much on my plate right now.
Ronda Bergeron
PS: Hi MaggieF.
Oh, believe me! There is such a thing a the terrible three's. It comes differently to different horses, of course, and no doubt will be worse in an abused horse. It's a mix of hormones and Mother Nature.
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A friend's mare, who had been the sweetest girl you can think of, suddenly turned into a real "teeny bopper"; squealing, moody, sassy, doing all sorts of stupid things and being generally mouthy - even worse when she was in heat. Her owner was close to desperation but the mare came around eventually, and is a lovely girl again.
Mind you, I know mares who have never turned sweet again but can be helped by hormone shots or some such medication.
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I am so sorry to hear that My Star go so frustrated she flipped over. It's a shock to see a horse fall over like that. Fingers crossed she didn't hurt herself any worse than what you have noted.
I think just be consistent and wait her out. If you stay the same, she knows she will have a "safe spot" in you no matter how confused she feels. (They're not that much different from kids that way! ) ;)
Thanks Kicki,
And of course it being fall, she's in her worse heats of the season.
Soon be over for her though and then of course we'll have snow, whoopee!!!
I was so panicked I started to cry and thought for sure she was hurt badly.
After they floated her teeth, Donald brought his brother to help him and he took it upon himself to let her loose, she started to jump around and went through an electric fence.
I had to get her calmed down. I was also ready to spit nickles, I was so mad.
Usually after she has her teeth done I attach a lead rope and let her walk off the excess energy she has until she is calm.
This HELPER decided he knew better. Then they stayed in the pen and watched her which only made her more excited and said can she ever move, oh yea real smart, too much inbreeding in their family, I think.
Last year I had her on so much meds she was sleepy all the time but the vet was worried about her because she can clear a six foot fence and then ran down our country road to the neighbouring farm.
We had to keep her in her stall for a while until she calmed down.
This morning she seems fine but I haven't been out to train her yet, we'll see.
You're right about the kids, I have two daughters and I remember !!
Again thank you and have a great day.
Ronda