Hi all,
Yesterday I started with Luuk, he is 2 and a half yo, to do the join-up.
First I introduced him to the dualy halter, just a few times, different days and that's oké for him. I trained him in the field next to his buddies. That's a Belg Senna and Luuk's mum Renske. When I was training him, Luuk could see the two other horses and he was perfectly doing his thing what I was asking for.
He is a funny horse and I already told here on the forum that the only thing he doesn't have is his short trousers and football haha... He is not afraid and he likes to play around. The other day I was brushing him and he took my keys out of my backpocket... there is a little bear on the keyring and there he stood with that little bear in his mouth and the keys were making that sound and he was realy enjoying what he did.
Yesterday, I went with Luuk to the neigbours, because they have a sandschool. My intsructor and I began with the join-up. I have to say that my instructor learned to do the join-up in a different way I see here from Monty, but I couldn't say to her you are doing wrong. Who am I with a half year of knowledge against her 40 year of knowledge.
Luuk was not realy cooperative and he was starting to whinny. He was not focused on us, but the horses he saw in the field next to him (new horses for him). He stood still and looked at them. It was for him the first time he was in the sandschool and for so long away from his friends. He is always with Senna in the paddock day and night.
I didn't like the join-up and I have to say we did the join-up for to long.
Yes, I am ashamed for what happend, because for me it didn't feel well.
My instructor told me that we have to let him run and try to get his attention. One time he was coming to me and made himself bigger by lifting his feet up a little bit.
For me it didn't feel well at all. My instructor took it all over and tryed to do a join-up but Luuk didn't give the four signals and he was still whinnying. He was realy calling out for his friends, specialy Senna. I couldn't hear them (the other horses), but maybe Luuk could. It was impossible for him to see them.
I wanted to stop the whole procedure of join-up, because he was not focused and I wanted to do some groundwork, like walking around and give him the feeling that everything is alright.
I told my instructor that I had the feeling that Luuk was feeling alone and that's why he was screeming,whinnying. He didn't like the whole situation and I had the feeling that we were putting a lot of pressure on him to let him do what we wanted him to do and that was what didn't feel right to me.
Can somebody please help me about what I did yesterday. Let's say I let it happen, because I was not strong enough to tell my instructor that she did it in a different way as Monty. And I felt very sorry for Luuk.
What did I do wrong and what could I do better? Follow my feelings or just follow the instructor?
Yesterday evening my instructor was at my house and I told her about the join-up Monty is doing. That I wached it again to see what Monty did and I asked her if she wanted to see that. She agreed and told me afterwords that she never learned to let him show him the "clock" and let him slow down in the third change in moving in circles and also a few signals Monty was doing differently.
She said we will try next time this method and see what will happen. That was an relief for me.
If you want to react on this it is aloud to be firm to me, I will not feel it as an attack. I want to learn from my mistakes.
Sorry, for the long story.
HELP.. HELP.. HELP......
Thanks, May.
May, you did the perfect thing by showing her Monty's method and she was aggreable to it as well.
Good job, my dear !!!!
It is sometimes hard to stand up for what we beleive in when the opposing person SEEMS to have more experience or knowledge then we do.
Saying this I will encourage you to always speak up for what you believe in, there is a saying, you get more with honey than you do with vinegar.
In other words, you did just right by asking her to watch the video with you. You were not demanding or pushy but inviting and that is why you succeeded.
Do not knock yourself down, you have learned from this experience and will do better next time with Luuk.
Have a good day,
Ronda
PS: One extra thing, OK. You do the join-up, you are the one experienced, ask, "would you mind if I do this". I'm sure she will agree.
May
Ronda is right, that you did not do anything wrong it just was not done so that your horse understood what you were asking or he was not focused during join up. It can be real frustrating to have your horse constantly calling when you are trying to work with them. A closed round pen helps keep the focus on you rather than what is around the horse. Fewer distractions makes it easier to school a horse. It is great that your instructor was open to learning a different way. Very experienced instructors can be intimidating but I think you are lucky that your instructor continues to try new things.
Be as kind to yourself as you are to your horses!
Cheers!
Hi May,
Luuk stood still to look at the other horses, this shows that he needed to orientate himself in the new surroundings. Next time you take him to the sandschool an hour before starting, let him look around, call for his friends and then find you, his known person, come in to do YOUR Join-up with him. He'll probably have calmed down and accepted his new world, when you give him the time.
See yourself as the advocate of the horse, you are there to defend him and find the best of all possibilities for him. Horses know how to adapt to new situations, this is the way they survive in the wild and over time. As long as he sees horses he'll know he can survive too.
You did all you could, showing Monty's way and now being the one to work with Luuk.
You do believe in yourself, just you don't know it!!!!!
Keep the good work going!
Miriam
Hi Ronda and Dennis,
Pfffttt.... that helpes.
I think you understand exactly how I am feeling.
I am glad that I wrote this and got responce from you.
Sometimes it feels that you are standing alone in this, when I am working on the spot I mean, but I was also glad my instructor was open to Monty's method.
The funny thing is that she learned to do the Join-Up.... but in a different way.
It also didn't feel well what she was doing, because I could see it en feel it through Luuk.
Yes, when I told her yesterday about Monty's Join-Up she was realy open minded and I relise now how lucky I am with her.
Yes, I wished I had a closed round pen in this case. Next time I will give Luuk more time to relax and see how he is reacting. And I will follow my intuition.
It was his first time out in the sandschool and 1 and a half hour away from his buddie. My instructor says that makes no difference. I think it does.
Thank you both for your positive reactions and that I don't have to "worry" for doing a wrong Join-Up. My thoughts are to do it right, without damaging Luuk. Next time it will be much better... I will tell you.
Have a nice weekend, May.
Hi Miriam,
I just saw your message, when I finished mine.
Thank you for saying, because that was what I was feeling. Luuk wanted to orientate, look around and walk around. He putted his nose in the sand, I was laughing, because his whole nose was yellow.
Good that you say to take him there one hour before starting a join-up. Probably I will do that without anybody around me. Just him and me.
Can I leave him without the line in the sandschool, so he can orientate by himself or do you think it is better to walk with him, dually halter and line?
Thank you for your support.
Have also a nice weekend, May.
Hi May,
Let him explore him new "here and now" on his own, stay around to make sure he's safe.
Funny coincidence: I was just reading "Handling the untouched horse" by Kelly Marks, let me quote:
"Horses don't learn when they're overexcited and distracted. It is a good idea to let the horse acclimatise to his new area for a while. Make sure he is comfortable with hay and water and shade and let him explore his new surroundings. He may cry for his companions for a while but he should settle down within an hour"
May, we are in good company!
Let us know how you're doing,
Miriam
Hi Miriam,
Isn't that wonderfull? And what I always say; it has to be like that, that you are reading this now, when I am asking that question!!!
Oh, I am so glad you are telling me this and that I have to follow my intuition.
So it does make a difference, offcourse.
It is so interesting how people think about the world of the horse, the way people think, horses are thinking and acting.
You know I have ADD and if I try to place myself in Luuk's situation I would do the same. I have to orientate myself first. Probably there are to many prickles (hope I translate this right) I have to let it sink in as well, because I don't have the overall look. Sometimes when I get to much in one time I have to sit down and relaxe for 10 minutes and give myself the time to get my energy back. After that I will give attention. Before that and without the relaxing time I can put my heels in the sand and block, can't concentrate or listen, because it doesn't fit in.
Probably that was what I felt yesterday with Luuk. He couldn't coop with the new situation, to much in a short time.
Ha... the next book I will buy from Kelly is the book you are reading now.
I am reading now "Perfect Confidence" from Kelly, very interesting.
Thank you again Miriam and I will let you all know how I am making progress.
Bye, May.
Hi May - well done! A new experience for both you and Luke but you managed to come through it OK. I guess there are almost as many versions of "Join Up" as there are horse whisperer type trainers and the idea of sending your horse out in a round pen then changing direction until the horse is prepared to stand still or come to you has been around for some time - Monty has perfected this with a very special version picked up from his time with the wild horses which makes his version the "best". Some trainers hear about Monty's join up try it themselves without the correct training and it it works then they incorporate it into their training. So I am not at all surprised that your trainer had a different version to Monty. You did very well to be able to show her Monty's video and it was really good that she was receptive to this and willing to learn. Congratulations! A new environment is so different and challenging for a young horse so they need plenty of time to settle and understand it and your presence is their only security. I took Tricka to a training session with a dressage instructor a few weeks ago. Initially it was pretty scary for us both as my ute skidded on her steep driveway and the weight of the float pulled us back towards a busy road. I thought I was going to kill us both but luckily the float swung around and missed the road - I had no control over the situation. We managed to negotiate a different entrance but we were both very shaken when we arrived. I was so pleased with Tricka as although she was very scared she settled down fairly well but I did insist on spending time with her prior to our lesson. I walked her around the arena a few times, showed her anything that might have appeared scary and spent time just standing with her in the centre rubbing her forehead and neck. We ended up having a fairly successful lesson but I wouldn't go there again with that drive way and no 4WD. So a new environment is scary for them! It is also hard for them when other new horses are close. I brought all my horses back here last week for a short stay. Tricka was very excited to see them - especially her mother. For the first ltime she played up really badly when I went to lead her away with the dually halter. My reaction was to settle her down with a join up session to make her more responsive. She has always been perfect with join up even though she has to do it in my home made menage. She had her usual mate in the paddock next to us and the recent arrivals about 50 metres away in another paddock. When I sent her away from me to start join up she just flew up and down the side of the menage closest to the horses whinnying like crazy and being really naughty. NOT very satisfactory - I simply allowed her to do this for awhile - there was nothing else I could do as if I tried to block her she just flew around me. So I just stood there until she was tiring of her activity and then moved in and sent her out again - this time she accepted what she had to do and did the perfect join up for me and then followed me away from the others like a lamb. Sooo... they are all unpredictable and join up is so much harder when it is in a new environment and they have new distractions and other horses around them. I am sure Luke will be so much better for you next time as now your instructor has better methods and you have learnt a lot too. Just make sure he has plenty of time in the sand arena to settle down and accept his environment first. If he initially refuses to do join up just be patient and send him out again. Good luck - from a non expert who has many disasters!!
Hi Maggie and all,
Thank you for your responce Maggie and discribing your situation.
This is exactly what happend with Luuk as well. He didn't react on us he was just busy with exploring new things, and when he didn't see his budies he was not sure about the whole situation and he called/screeming out for help. Like, when he could hear his buddies THEN there was one thing he could be sure of!!
My husband, a not horseman, said: I think it is strange for a horse. He comes in a new environment, you don't give him the change to let him explore and you send him away to flee in the new situation. I think my husband has a point here, don't you think?
And what you said about all kinds of Join-Ups, yes I understand this as well. It looked like I was so naief to think there is just one Join-Up. But people want to do there own Join-up system and call it also Join-up.
I will tell you, the one of Monty is for me the one what works and I will read again his instructions in his book From my hand to yours. THE Join-Up is the one from Monty, dot.
Also about the round pen I found out that the messurements can be different, I didn't know that. So I will look into that as well when I am back in the sandschool.
If I look back at the situation, I learned a lot, also because of you all. Thank you for your positive input.
It is so logical, but I have to understand it first. I will never make this mistake again.
Have a very nice weekend all, May
Hi all,
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Just to tell you that this afternoon I went with Luuk again to the sandschool. I let Luuk go and he was running to the fence to see the 3 horses he already saw the other day.
They came to him and they stood nose to nose and were very excited. I put Luuk back on the lead (dually) and lead him through the school, because it wasn't possible to loosen him. The 3 horses next to the sandschool, were jumping up and down, running around and wanted to see who Luuk was, they were very excited and I was afraid that maybe they would heart themself with the fence.
Luuk was oké. I let him watch the other horses and walked with him. I trained him to stop and stand still and backing up as well.
There was nobody who could help me, because I wanted to do a join-up with him as well and I had to fix the round pen with poles and rope, so I will do that tomorrow.
It went very well with Luuk and his whinnying, he did that four times in the hour. So that was not bad for the second time in the sandschool. I gave him the change to look around and see the whole inviroment. It looked like he reconized it.
When I came back with him at the farm and put him in the paddock with his buddie he was alright. He was not doing the silly things he did the first time, he came in the paddock like; here I am again, it wasn't bad at all.
You will hear from me again.
Cheers, May.
Well done May - it is a very difficult and quite dangerous situation you have with the three other horses so close to the sand arena. I think Luke did very well to be responsive to you when the other horses were so close and excited. I don't suppose it would be possible to ask for those three horses to be moved while you are working Luke?
Hi Maggie,
Yes, I was very proud of Luuk, he was realy a good boy.
Why can it be a dangerous situuation in your oppinion?
I can go to the sandschool in the afternoon with Luuk, because the 3 horses are then in there stables.
Cheers, May.
Only dangerous May if Luuk gets excited and unresponsive too which is likely to happen with any young horse if other horses are playing around next to them - they just want to join in with the fun and ignore their training session. If Luuk gets excited then he may knock you over or bump you with his head or tramp on you etc. Not an ideal situation to put Luuk in at this early stage. It could set back his trainingand you could get injured. I would certainly be taking Luuk up to the sandschool in the afternoons while the other 3 horses are in their stables if I was you. Later in his training he will need to get used to being trained with other horses playing up around him but not at this early stage when he is just learning to focus on you.
Hi Maggie,
Thank you for your advice.
Last time (the second time in the sandschool) he was alright, but I don't think I will take the risk, after what you are saying. I will see if I can train him in the afternoon and let him do his join-up.
Yesterday, I introduced him the sponge... he is so funny, everything is oké and he is trying to eat the sponge.... I washed him with the dry sponge and later with the wet sponge (I used warm water, because it is getting colder here) and he liked it.
Thank's again Maggie,
cheers, May.
Hi May,
Long time since we last spoke, I think you are doing a great job with Luuk. and you know in your heart that your instincts are right, Everything you think you should be doing is right, so go do it. You can feel his actions and fears instinctively, and you are tuned into his movements. It shows from your first comments, you knew he was unhappy, you knew he was unsure of his surroundings, and you knew the instructor was not doing what was right for him. You changed this by talking to the instructor and you are moving forward everyday to better responses and awareness from him.
You have an ability to feel the horses needs and wants, so carry on listening to your instincts and doing the brilliant job that you are doing. Speak soon.
Sandie
Hi Sandie,
Good to "hear" you. Hope everything is alright with you and your daughter and the horses.
Yes, where were you all the time, I missed you on the forum!!!
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Thank you so much for your words, this helpes me also to follow my instincts and heart and not follow my thouhgts or....
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I don't know if you read the topic "broken saddle", but also there, I had the feeling it was not right.
Read more about it if you want.
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I see you have your medal now as well!!!!
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Good luck, have a nice day and say hello to your daughter,
Bye, bye, May.