Hi Lisa-Claudia, I think you'll find guidance in Monty's answer to a similar question. It's archived in the Q&A tab here in the Uni. Scroll down to "May 21.08 What can children use in place of whips?"

thanks Giulia!

hi lisa, you are so right in the way you think. you will be just fine. but i think the your teacher(s) coulf learn some thing from you and the uni.

I understand what you are saying. I'm looking for lessons right now, and I hope that I can find a place familiar with Equus. Good luck to you! I think the uni will really help us all feel confident learning along with the horse more.

thanks howie and ealight!
well yesterday I was at my riding lesson and at the end, I was removing the bridle of my horse and talking with my teacher and the horse tried to bite me...and she punched the horse in he face! I was sad...I said that I don't think he deserved that...it's not a way to settle his problème...well she said that sometimes, horses need that...so I asked if she knows about a horsman called Monty Roberts...and she said yes!...but she doesn't trust his methodes...she was not really interested to talk about that...then I was very sad...she is a good person and she knows a lot about horses...but she want to stick with the way she learned...
personnaly, right now I don't know much more than her about what to do when a horse have the habit of biting...but I will do my best in my life to change the habit of humans to cause pain to horses for making them docile...
oh! and I hope that you understand well what I write, because I am not english, I am french (from Canada)...
tanks to be real horse lovers!

Dear Lisa-Claudia,

It is a big problem here in the UK as well, many riding schools don’t have enough horses or ponies and therefore those they do have are over worked and often very tired. They have to put up with many different riders, mainly learners and teachers that seem to have become oblivious to the horse's wellbeing - we call them the "Kick and Hit brigade". The horses quickly become hard in the mouth and unresponsive to the leg and therefore they get kicked and hit even more!!!!!!

I think it is important that we question and challenge the riding school or teaching methods. You do not have to be an expert in horsemanship or even follow natural horsemanship to know that continuously kicking and hitting a horse is WRONG for both the horse and the rider.

I know it’s difficult especially if you are young but remember the horse cannot talk for itself so we have to stand up to these bullies for the sake of the horse.

The best way of showing your displeasure is to find a school or teacher that does not use these methods and tell the old teacher why you are leaving. If we all do this then these awful teachers and riding schools will have to change their methods or go out of business!!! Also you can write to any organisations which regulate these schools. For example in the UK we have the British Horse Society.

Good luck

Monty uses distraction for the habit of biting. He has a good answer for that in the Q&A section - can you find it lisa-claudia?
Glad you are such a good student to study these lessons in your second language!

With fear of sounding like a member of the "Hit and Kick Brigade" I will tell you what I have found works with our stock when they have the tendancy to reach out to bite you. I have found that most horses here on our ranch, when they are reaching out to bite do it on the sneaky side, it is not an ears back - quick bite with malicious intentions, more of a sneak up and get a quick nibble in to see if you are paying any attention to them. Because it is on the slower side, as they reach out to get the nibble in, I give them a quick kick in the shins with the instep of my foot. This is NOT done with great force, nor done with malice, but it is done quick enough and with enough force to stop them from continuing with the intended munch on my forearm or shoulder. I find, that like schooling on the dually, this bit of discomfort only needs to be applied once or twice and the process is stopped before it becomes a habit. We run over 40 mares with 4 studs, I have seen what malicious bites do to other horses, I do not wish to be missing a good portion of my forelimb because I didn't prevent them from nibbling on me. It is a simple little gesture to give your horse, but it may save greater pain later on in case the nibbles escalate.

I have a six month old colt who is going through a nipping phase at the moment. I have found that if I blow on his nose as he goes to bite it shocks him enough to distract him. I know this is purely playful and attention seeking behaviour, even human kids go through it.

Monty's distraction if I am correct is a not all out hurt the horse kick but a quick non hurtful one on the leg even stepping to coronet and sliding foot down as it after a few times conditions the horse to look down and at its leg instead of continuing with the process of the bite. If I had the answer in text I could copy and paste it but I think that is the jest of it.

There is a lot of different type of bitting a horse can bite to try to hurt you but also just to say he's unhappy of what your doing on him, just to play or even trying to kiss you. And the worst is to see a horse get a punch on the nose for a kiss. Like it happens every time a horse bites a horsemen from the old school.

I think the way to stop the habits might be different depending on the reason why the horse tries to bite.

If you where talking with your back facing your horse maybe he bite you just trying to get your attention I don't know I wasn't there But if that's the only occasion wen he does that it might be the reason and I would just avoid this kind of position (Lui tourner le dos et l'ignorer tout en étant à portée de dents) and would react just like for a love bite. Wen it's for attention or love ignoring them is the best reaction I think. I don't mean do like if nothing happend I mean not paying any attention to the horse for a moment (Just to be sure I'm clear since english is also my second language to and not as good as your's witch I found really easy to understand by the way).

I'm a carriage driver and our horses get peted by to many people in a day biters dosen't suit the job very well so I might not be very good to answer that question because I never worked with any horse that had that habits. I remember only one horse that was really vicious and even wanted to charge any people passing by him on the sidewalk but I personaly had his owner to sell him wen he charged and bite me in the back of my arm while I had forgot he was there and just went in the back of my carriage. This kind of horse is to dangerous to work with kids around.

So I don't have any experience with horses that are to the point that they got mean. But for a love bite I do the same that I did to my child that were breastfeed to stop them fron biting I just pretend that it hurts even more than it does by shouting to stunt them and then I ignore them for a little. It's enough to make them quit the habits. Wen it's a love bite.

Beetle I understand what you mean. I use to say that the only reason that would make me hurt a horse would be for my safety. In fact the only time that I did hit a horse (1999)it was to stop him from pawing the ground while I was harnesting him after he accidentaly kick me on the leg because I came with the bridle in the same time he started pawing. After about five days of kicking him the habits was gone for ever.

Lately I started to have a problem with my mare. She tries to kick me wen I buckle her belly band. I understand she complains about it and she's right it's not very good and buying a new one the next thing on my list. But for now there is no money and we have to live with the old one for a little. But it's very dangerous wen she tries to kick me like that. She did hit me once and my first reaction was (old school) to kick her back for two days and she was already starting to seem less sure that she felt like kicking but in the same time I was feeling very bad about it so I stoped. And she's still trying to kick me everyday. I know she loves me anyway it's the bellyband that she hates. But I know that I have to find another way to stop her because it's really dangerous and it's a problem that I live today. I was trying to talk to her and calm her by staying calm but it wasn't working like it usually does. But thinking on how I could distract her instead just gave me a idear that I still need to try before I can say if it works.

Merci Azelie!
your answer is realy interesting...
at the school were I ride, a lot of horses seem to have the habit oh biting...but the one that I'am talking about is an old dominante mare...usualy, she doesn't bite humans (well..not often...it is usualy when I'm tighting the girth...) but she always try to bite the other horses...even when I'm riding her...(I always reapete to her that she is an herbivorous animal...but she doesn't seem to believe me yet...so she she try to eate the other horses...)I dont know wy she is doing that...maybe to keep is place in the top of the hierarchy...
I it hard for me to know because I only see her twice a week...

Bonjour, Azelie,

I am from Western Canada, so I am the opposite from you, my French is not so good.

I read your last post with interest. In the begining you talked about your horse "kissing" you. I assume it is a nibble on your arm or shoulder. I have had horses all my life and really can't remember two horses "kissing". I think it may be dangerous to put human feelings in horses actions, but none the less I would discourage any form of nibbling from my horses.

As for your being kicked at when you are setting the belly band. I don't know for sure, I don't drive horses. But that said, what would it hurt to try adjusting the band from the off side? I have lost half of my left thumb and on young green horses and horses that won't accept a bridle I bridle from the off side because I can't control the bit with my stump. Usually horses that don't bridle from the near side will accept the bridle from the off side, because at first they do not really know what is happening. So when they accept it I reward them by removing the bit, rubbing them, and then I do it again. After they accept the bridle with ease from the off side, I go back to the near side. Usually they accept the bridle easier this time around. I don't know if this will work, but you are getting kicked now, so maybe it is worth a try. If the horse doesn't know what side it is "supposed" to be cinched from, what difference does it make if it is done from the near or off side?

Wow, thank Beetle I think it's a good idear that's going to help her change that habit. I think that this idear combine to what I've started today and enough patience should solve the problem because already today I think I had a very good improvement.

Before starting to buckle the belly band I've ask a friend at the stable to give her some pieces of carrots but to stop as soon as she would start the kicking and not to give her any carrot after that. She did two small kicks instead of the instead of the 4-6 stronger kicks that she would usually do. I'm going to continue to ask someone to give her something before and stop wen she starts and I'm also going to change my routine and hitch up from the other side. I'm sure that it will soon be a problem from the past.

I've just moved my horses from one stable to another this fall and now I can work differently with her and sometimes get some positive help like today witch would have never been possible in the old stables. Most of the time I'm by myself witch is also good but now I'm going to change my schedule for the time I solve the kicking problem.

I also use to have the problem that wen we start the day she would run out of the stables. I had that problem for years and I was never able to correct it working in the other stables. Today she's walking out and it still get's better everyday. The kicking problem also comes from there. Since she was running out of the stables I needed someone with me to help me and the only guy there had in his mind that he had to be rude to her to earn her respect and even if I would not let him hit her in front of me the attitude that she has wen where hitching up comes from there.

I'm saying kicks but it might not be the best way to explain it. What she does is that she tries to catch my hand under her belly but since I know she's going to do that I always stay out of reach so I don't get kicked she only almost catch me one of the first time she did it. She almost got my leg but the bruise was to small to say I really got kicked.(Je sais pas comment le dire en englais mais elle m'a seulement frôlée). It was less than the bruise I would get from knocking myself on a table. It's more because I know that I could have been serious if she would catch me and she really tries and I know I need to do something about it.

Same thing wen I say the horse is kissing me it's only a langage miss understanding. I don't put human feelings in horses actions. I'm talking about the kind of love bite that a horse can give you wen he like the rubbing a little to mutch and is trying to rub you back and wen after the nose rubbing you get the teeth rubbing with feel more like a bite wen your human. So I guess nibbling is the right word I just learned something. I see it as a gesture that horses would do to theyre special horses friends only. That's why for me it's a kiss but I don't see it like a human kiss. I think you would agree that it's more like kiss than the "kiss" a horse would give to get a carrot because he learned the trick.

And Lisa-Claudia your horse is telling the other horses she's going to bite them just to tell them they're not friends and shoudn't be that close. Since horses are very big flight animals they have a very big circle around them where they can feel that your to close. Leur "bulle" est pas mal plus grande que la notre et certains chevaux sont moins sociables. Elle sait que les autres chevaux sont pas comestibles ;) Even if she might have some good reasons it's still a bad habit that need to be discouraged. But most of the horses I've seen doing that are just biting the air and not trying to reach the other horses.

And wen your tighting the girth it's the same thing than wen I'm buckling my belly band it's to express disconfort and it also need to be discouraged because wen they get to serious in it, it can get dangerous.

Only one small kick yesterday and buckling up from the other side helped to, thank you Beetle. It's also probably going to work even better because from buclking from the other side the strap is not on the same spot on her belly. I'm very happy thank you.

Azelie:

Glad it helped. Maybe you were getting a sore from the buckle or band. Now with the new placement it's not rubbing as much. Good luck and stay safe.

Like I said I know it's not a good harnest but there where no sore. I've cut the pad on her back in a way that her spine is completely free and she feel her belly is a little tight but that's because I want to make sure it wont move and rub her skin.

Thank you again for your help.

I coudn't go yesterday and it's my partner that went today. He did hitch up from the off side but forgot the carrot and he said she tried to kick only once. I reminded him that consistency was important and he sais he understand.

I'm confident, we just need to be patient.

azelie, I don't know if this will help or not but when buckling my girths (I don't drive so I don't know how different your strap is) I do it up and then stretch the front legs forward by lifting them a little and this causes the girth to shift backwards and avoids any pinching skin or rubbing! Could be partly the positioning of the girth thats making her kick?
Good luck :)

...I wasn't giving any news from her progress because I haven't seen her since last time.

Mabe I shoudn't talk about this because it's very personnal but. I would never stay a hole week with no news from my horse. I'm someone that never lies and it would look weird to give periodical reports of her progress and then stop in the middle with no reason. Also because I'm sure that the people here will understand how I can feel today and how I miss her.

Ten years ago I made a transaction that I shoudn't have done. I wanted to give back the money and correct the situation right away but I was stock in my house with my autistic son and no income. One day I had no choice to have someone else to take care of my son because it was becoming impossible for my younger daugther. Then right away as soon as I got back to work I saved the money and start paying back the guy.

But he always finds an excuse to ask for more. And he's the biggest owner around here so even if everybody hate him he think he rules the world and nobody never stands against him because he's there boss and the owner of the biggest of the only 3 stables in Montreal.

But I did because I gave him to mutch money already. In june when Belle stepped on a wire and I broke my wrist and he answered me that it was impossible for a horse to get a shock by the hoofs he crossed the line.

Now since he needs to do something to restore his image of autority his trying to fight in court even if he's wrong. He's trying to say that I never payd him for Belle. I did paid him and I'm going to prove it in court but for now she's I don't know where, eating I don't know what kind of hay with her legs getting big for staying inside to mutch.

I have a very good lawyer, she managed to do everything very fast. It's going to be in court tomorow. And she's going to try to get everything done the same day or at least make sure that I get Belle back to be able to work before it gets back to court again. They weren't supposed to take her from me since I need her for my work. I'm mot afraid of the ending of this story because I know I'm in my rights but it's a big stress.

Anyway it's a good thing it's happening now so after I'm going to be able to put all my energies on my project instead.

P.S. Sorry for taking so much space in your post Lisa-Claudia.

oh thats rotton, what a horrid man!! The person who owns the yard my horse is on is a bit like him, thinks she knows it all and is really vile!(hopefully moving yards soon.) I really hope it all turns out ok and you get her back soon, I bet you miss her loads, I hope she's ok as well and not too fat when she comes back.
fingers crossed for your project as well!

Thank you.

Only one things, I'm not afraid that she's going to be to fat she had a poblem with one of her back legs last year and since then wen she stay to long without working the leg gets big and then it can be hard to bring back.

oh I see, thats not good! fingers crossed for you and belle!

Tomorow morning we are going to be back in court. I think the judge is going to see what kind of man he is I think it's obvious for anybody with a little bit of judgement and the judge must have seen a lot of bozos like him. But for now I'm trying to stay calm and confident and not think about what it's going to be like if she fall in his hands...

good luck!!!

Azelie:
When you get done in court and have some money saved, phone Tom Durocher in Alberta. He is Monty's instructor here in Canada. He is just west of Lloydminster and is a realy good instructor, he will either supply the horses for the class you want or you can bring your own. He will be more money than the online Uni, but working with him is really worth the money. Tom also has no problems with having only one person in his classes, he wants to get themessage out however he can plus he realy gets you to think about what you are doing and why. He is the best instructor I have had for dealling with horses. Look him up, all his info is on Monty's web page, you won't be dissapointed if you go. He also works with special needs children on his Metis settlement and may be able to offer some suggestions with regards to your son. Good luck.

She's back :)

It was a long week and a long day in court. Our cause took 2 hours in front of the judge. It was a good judge and he took the time to ear the hole story and understand what really happend. I had tears of joy when he gave his judgement.

Then since it was a friday afternoon I couldn't find the transportation for the horse and the "huissier" before saturday. It was more expensive because we are on week-end and it took the hole day because the tranportation guy had a problem with his usual truck and we had to use smaller trailers and transport the horse appart from the carriage.

She didn't work yet so I'm not sure how she will do but she seems in good shape.

Thank you Beetle for your advices. I'm in canada but in Quebec so not really closer from Alberta than California. I'm already planning to get lessons. But for now I'm building a big project here and it's not the right time for me to go. But I will wen it's going to be possible.

Thank you for your support.

Bonjour Azelie,
je suis vraiment contente que tout ce soit arrangé avec Belle!

Hi everybody ! I have read all your correspondence and I am excited about it ! Happy that Belle is back with you Azelie ! Here is and advice from me about the belly belt. Have you ever seen Monty working with the artificial arm ? I built one for my studies. If a horse kicks when you ask him to give the feet or put on the equipment you are using, you can use the arm instead of your own limps. He can kick as much as he wants and you keep the artificial hand on that spot until he stops. As a reward you immediately remove the arm when he stops kicking. Then you come back and he will be kicking less. Just repeat the procedure until he has learned that the effort of kicking isn't worth the energie and that he will not be hurt by the touch of the hand. I do like the idea of distract the horse but would use a good rub on his sweet spot instead of carrots. The hand is also good to test if there comes some kicking from a horse that has the reputation to kick or for young horses etc. I have some photos of "the making of" the arm and I would e-mail it to you if you want. you can find a lot about it in Monty's book "From my hands to yours" too. I attended Monty's Special Training in 2005. I took a video when he was talking about the biting issue and he demonstrates how to kick on the horses boot or how to slide down with the shoe from the corone down the hoof. Let me have your facebook details or an e-mail address, Lisa-Claudia and I'll send it to you. You are a brave and clever young lady. I earned respect from the trainer in our stable just by keeping the faith in my work. People get help from me to resolve certain problems with their horses and she can see that patience and building trust pays out in the end. She ignored me for years and only now I can say she really starts to respect me. For a young girl it is much harder again to stand tall and speak out but I have no doubt you will keep going your path and convince many people who use violence to change their ways. Well, I am German and English is only my third language as Italien is the second one. So don't worry, I think we all are getting along very well ! Richard, you made me laugh ! So you call them the "Hit and kick Brigade" ? I have been named by a Cutting Trainer who saw Monty's Autograph on the back of my jacket "One of the Peace and Harmony fraction" :-) His philosophy is that horses have been born minor than humans to they have to obey on demand. I am looking forward to read news from all of you ! VioBerlin

Hi Vio!
thank you for your comments and bravo for studying in your third language!wow!
my email adress is lisa-claudia@hotmail.com and feel free to use it!
I have to say that things are going better at my riding school...teachers are realy trying to work whit us (my fiancé and I)in a fare way for the horses. I'm realy happy about that. Last week, the owner said to me: "one thing is certain...I wil never see you beat or injure a horse!". It made me laught.
I fell now more confortable because I know better what I'm doing and what I am asking to the horse...at the begening you often get what you want by luck and not because you are conscious of what you are asking for...
I now realy feel the relation that is create whit the horse when I ride...and it feel good!
I love riding so much!