I've worked with a couple different trainers who all say different things. The trainer I had my best experiences with did not allow treats because the horse becomes too focused on the treats and not on the work, or your relationship. Your mare showed you just that when she came to you and was sniffing all over you in a pushy way. In my opinion, if you are going to give a horse a treat you do it out of a bucket or in a ground feeder, then you get the satisfaction of giving them a treat, but without the consequences.

I have always given treats just because, but when I was breaking a mustang for a lady several years ago, I took carrots for him, put them in my back pocket, and found out it was NOT a good idea, I couldnt get on him with his nose in my pocket, so he had to wait until we were done. The carrots stayed in my truck until then.

There is no doubt that working with treats is very effective but causes a new problem to be resolved. In the books about clicker training they say that it is possible to teach the horses not to be pushy. Personally I completely separate the usual work and the "games" with clicker and treats. That works quite well.
Rudi

Aren't you amazing - you do your research and are then willing to experiment with something new even if you have not previously condoned it! I am quite tickled that you tried treats - can I laugh at you?? Bieng so experienced and being such a "no ham" person I am left speechless or wordless that you even contemplated trying treats with Star. No doubt it shows what an open, enquiring mind you have. Stars reaction of looking for treats, showing less respect and being pushy are typical intial reactions from a horse who has never being given treats previously. If you wish to give her treats in the future then you can train her out of these initial naughty habits. Naturally I think that you would find that you had huge success with them with Star once you have trained her to accept her treats in an acceptable manner. Tricka was a bit naughty too at first. I tend to carry my treats in a bumb bag. If Tricka tries to sniff the bag or show any disrespect she is immediately disciplined with the dually halter until she stands still. with her head held away from me and is respectful. As I go to get the treat and give it to her if she moves her head towards my hand she is again disciplined. She only gets the treat when she is standing placidly and then she needs to take it gently from my hand. It is a bit like training a dog! It is safest to initially hold the treat in the palm of your hand and then allow them to take it from your open hand - less likely to mistake a finger for a treat. However once they are taught to take treats respectfully and gently then you can hold them in your fingers with no fear of being bitten. If Star doesn't respond to this training then give up the treats but have a good go first given you have come so far. The dually is a great help in this training and given she is a nervous little horse I think she will quickly learn. If I don't have the dually on and wish to give a treat to Tricka in the paddock then I place my hand on the bridge of her nose and gently position her head away before she gets the treats. She does this willingly as she knows that is what she is meant to do but sometimes she makes the error of trying to get the treat quickly before my other horse comes. Straight away she is corrected! I used treats a lot when I was breaking Tricka in as positive re-enforcement for correct responses but I do not use them very often now. Just occasionally when she has been really good after new training or if she is nervous because she is in a new environment. When we go somewhere new the treat seems to steady her down and then she will look around and seem to say "OK this is alright afterall because you are here and I have just had a nice treat for being here!" However you are correct in suggesting that treats are wrong for some horses. I wouldn't give treats from my hand to a horse who is particularly pushy until the pushiness has been trained out of it. Nor would I give treats from my hand to a horse that is going to be around children as it is difficult for children to give the treats appropriately. My shetland NEVER gets treats from the hand as he is already a pushy little fellow and he has wee children around him brushing him and loving him.

Ronda
Glad you are not giving STAR treats for her performance but rather using your voice and touch are her reward for a good job. I never use treats in training for the same reason as you. He would get pushy and unfocused. After the work is all done and he has been unsaddled, cooled down and washed I will give him his pellet feed and sometimes a special treat in the bucked. I do feed him by hand and because he is a gentleman he is OK. During the harvest season he gets the seconds of the Asian pears and walnuts that the ranch produces.
Because he is such a smart horse, if I don't feel like shelling the walnut I will just put it on the ground ad he will crack it and spit the shell out and just get the flesh of the nut. Besides Asian pears, when we go to shows I share my banana with him in the morning and my grapes in the afternoon. He will occasionally get an orange as well. Peppermint candy is his favorite and is only given a few the whole year. I got him a salt like that is peppermint flavored so he gets his salt and minerals. He doesn't really like the commercial salt likes. He does love the Himalayan salt licks though.
Before anyone calls the white jacketed men, walnuts are OK for horses as long as they are English walnuts Black walnuts are poison to them so don't feed black walnuts or leaves to them. And most of the other horses on the ranch like the pears and walnuts but not bananas, oranges or grapes. Go figure

Cheers

i find this all very interesting i was happily giving carrots untill oscar then just became completly all about the carrot and the readin from monty its not good to feed by hand oscar now gets his treats with his feeds ! julie/unicorn

For some horses (that need some motivation, when they loose the interest, or for the once with a lack of respect) might be useful this exercise :

Don't keep the treat in the pocket, but in a bucket outside the training area. After an exercise, let the horse stand still and go and get a treat. The horse should not follow you, not one step. Then turn with the treat and place it on the ground in front of the horse, then allow to eat.
It is a good exercise to train the horse to be patient.

Later on you could make it more difficult and let the horse stand still orientated to the opposite direction of the bucket where the food is. If he has learn to respect and trust you, he will not even turn his had and wait for you to come back.

Good morning everyone,
I knew I would get responses and I like that.
Yea Maggie, you can laugh at me, I don't mind. I feel if I can't laugh at life it ain't worth living, right.
I wanted to see if all this "clicker training" was all it was suppose to be, therefore the treats. I followed the directions, click when done well and make sure the head is turned to the side and offer the treat.
STAR loved the food, yummmmm!!! but when I approached her it was all about the food and our relationship feel to the back.
For me it showed how quickly a horse can return to it's natural habit of searching for food. Yes, STAR"S nature is aggressive, and therefore cannot be coddled. She needs a firm and determined leader.
I also, have grandchildren and thought what if she.....when they walk by, no way!!!!
My granddaughter feeds her horses, very seldom, only as a treat and they are fine with this.
STAR is a lead mare, she proved this when she had to stay at my daughters farm. She took over the herd very quickly to my daughters surprise and mine. She's smaller than some of Angie's horses but mighty in heart.
So no hand given treats for her, only in the bucket or on the end of a stick (for stretching purposes).
Ronda

Sounds like a very sensible decision Ronda but I guess it was good to try. Star does sound to be the kind of horse that is best without any treats. She gets plenty of love from you and that is her reward. I find the idea of clicker training a little bit over the top and have no desire to try it as such myself although it has been recommended to me. I had a chance to go to a clinic last year but after seeing the video decided definitely not for me. If Tricka is ever suitable for my grandchildren then treats will stop completely. She only gets them very rarely now as I have listened and learnt from you. Take care and stay warm.

This is all very interesting. I found that with my horse if you put the treats on the ground and don't associate them with you, he's not pushy with me. It's just hard getting him to find where they are laying:)

I give treat for getting in the trailer and after I ride. But my horses are not pushy. I have always done this with all my horses. I love the look on they face when u take it out of the truck. I know It a bad thing to do.but they love it and as long as they respect me and don't bit I don't see any reason to stop.

Hi all,

What I think is that YOU are the treat!!!!
If the horse is doing right you give a stroke and say something.
I think the horse will be focused on you and when you give a treat there attention is going to something else, THE TREAT.
.
If you are training a horse,the horse has to do it because of you are asking him/her to do, not because he/she will get a treat.
.
You are the leader and not the treat.
.
The same I had with Renske. I didn't know about giving not a treat is better. But she did the same, bumbed into me because she wanted her carrot.
Now IF I want her to give a carrot I put it in her bucket and thats fine. She can better bump in to the bucket that in me.. ha..
.
Bye for now, May.

When I got my Princess, I tried to give her an apple, she said no thank you. I tried a carrot, same answer. Guess she has never had treats. Emmett, on the other hand, loves treats. He will take anything you want to give him. I tried cutting them up and putting them with Princess' grain, she pushed them aside, and Emmett went and ate them when she was done. So she doesnt get treats until I manage to find something she likes. I had to teach my mustangs to like them, but that was much easier than getting Princess to try them. It only took a couple times of putting treats in their food to get them to like them, but she just wont even try them, so I keep looking. If I ever do find something she will try, fine, if not, thats ok too. She is perfectly happy getting loved up for a treat. And I had no idea they would eat walnuts. One horse I had liked lime popsicles. Wouldnt touch any other kind.

Try a peppermint candy. If your horse likes peppermint give them low sugar or sugarless. Sugar is not very good for horses, especially the older they get.

Cheers!

Thanks. I will try that. The horse that liked lime popsicles also liked 3 musketeer bars, would share them with me sometimes. I was just a kid then, wouldnt give one to a horse now, though. Never did give any sugar to any of them. My mustang stallion Phantom liked oatmeal cookies, but wouldnt touch peppermints, although he did like the plants. It was kind of funny, I had an herb garden, and after I was working in it for awhile, he would stand there and sniff my hands with his eyes closed as long as I let him. Pure enjoyment. Sometimes he would lick my hands too. Well, the herbs DID smell good. Had all kinds, so I never did know which ones he liked best. Didnt feed them to the horses, though. They were all for cooking, salads, and tea, so all harmless. But he sure did like the way they smelled. One time I had a 2 day old filly who came down with diarhea and I paniced, was flat broke and had no idea what to do, so got out my herb book to see if anything I had would help, found one I had for salads that said it would help with that, so the next thing was to figure out how to give some to a baby who wasnt eating solid food yet, decided to give her mom a small handful, and it cleared it right up. Mom liked it, too. I thought that whatever mom ate, baby would get, and it worked. Cant remember what it was.