Well said Jan;
I fully agree. I have never agreed with any sort of buck stopper. If your horse is bucking, either you are doing something wrong or the horse is having difficulties and/or issues. And these could be anything from saddle sore, to hoof problems, bit resistance, a simple wrinkle in the the saddle pad even. Or as Jan states, too much to soon, basically. The bottom line is, that there is never any need for a buck stopper. These are very painful "aids", very. They should be banned from use.
Any one requiring their use, really needs to seek "good professional help", rather than resort to a "quick fix/remedy", which, in essence is all these really are.
Cheers,

Paul

Thanks for your valuable input on this subject Paul. One other thing I would like to add is that we are aiming to get our horses to respond to our requests not react to methods we use - there is a big difference between response and reaction from our horses.
Cheers
Jan

Regardless of my POV in regards to the buckstopper - (I'm not particularly in favor of it) - I still think it should be pointed out that Monty is carefully noting in several places in the lessons that this is NOT for young or starting horses, but for the horse that has "stuck" in bucking mode, and should only be used by a professional trainer. (I just assume he means a Monty Robert's certified trainer, although that isn't spelled out.)

Dear All, One of the hard parts in the professional field is when horseowners seek help due to already learned behavior, from other owners/trainers and many stories of horses being put into training with professionals turn out in "end result" even worse behavior. Just the other day we came across antother type of "buckstopper" that would twitch the ears if bucking - a good horseperson would see and understand the difference in equipment and understanding of shaping behaviors - the responsibility is only on the human never the horse. Don´t we all wish everybody think the same way we do? However the world of training horses is in fact not black and white.
It would not be fare to criticize Jan for your thoughts on this, not at all. At the same token, we can not blame the horse, horse owners or those who seek knowledge and understanding or help for that matter. First of all, I do not believe any horse owner or trainer would have in mind they will produce a "bucker". In Sweden we have a saying: When the knowledge ends the violence take part". We, humans, and especially horse people have a well known and rooted thinking of saying: My way works for me.
Listening to grown up people, trainers and parents watching their children being bucked of and say: It is a part of the learning, get up again child, tell the horse of and other ways of getting along in the "art of riding" does not make a better world for horses and people.
The Hand that holds the reins, the wip, the lead rope etc is all connected to the mind of the human. Every second we are close to the horse, we train them, weather we want to believe it or not.
It is true Jen, we need to think like you. And still, we will come across horses that has gotten learned behavior due to people not wanting to understand or use trauma free training. For us, it is about understanding the levels of learned behavior when the damage has been done so to speak. I am convinced that both Monty, the CI:s and all the professional trainers using the Join-Up® concept have nights they can not sleep but trying to come up with even better ways to save horses and people from death.
We will never get away from the fact that our industry is what it is - how come it is sold more wips, extra reins in every form, drugs to calm down horses etc instead of people investing in them selves first? Because we are only humans - and we are not united in how horses learn, think, understand and interact with humans or, last but not least we view the word and work of violence in different ways.
So, let´s keep up the good work, and give both horses and people as much understanding as we possibly can - that might make a difference! Warmest CI Ann Lindberg/Sweden

Yes indeed, this bit of equipment is for very highly experienced people ONLY & that is stated on the lessons several times!
Of course, all other aspects of the horses health MUST be investigated fully long before resorting to this.

The whole point of it is to save the life of a poor unfortunate horse who has come up against either wrong handling or an unfortunate incident in it's life that's caused it to think it's a good idea to buck everyone off; look at the video, how many riders would be able to safely sit on those bucks? The risk here is both to the horse & the rider!! she didn't end up at Monty's without all other avenue's being tried i'm sure!
I'm sure when they come up against the buck stopper, it is painful BUT, "they train themselves" once they've tested it, if they wish to do it again, it's their responsibility is it not? That's what correction is, a choice to go the unwanted way or the easy way.
The buck stopper should in no way ever be used on a young horse who's just finding his feet, that is where good ground work & training begins, but we do either TRAIN OR UN-TRAIN our horses every time we handle them, so why should the horse in the worst instance end up being put to sleep without giving it this LAST CHANCE???

That is how i see this piece of equipment, a last chance, i know i wouldn't deny my horse that if it were my fault she ever became like that. In the wrong hands they so easily can go wrong, but it's not their fault.
Beryl

I can see all points of view on this so I won't ramble on :-) If the horse used in the video was presented to me in that condition I would not ask ANY rider, no matter how experienced, in all consciousness to get on that horse(I even feared for the welfare of the dummy never mind a rider!!) so what would I do if I wasn't to use the buckstopper? I don't know to be honest. On that basis, I would really love to hear from Paul and Jan, how would you work with this horse in a different way? I agree with you Jan about groundwork (it is all I do, I dont ride!) but this horse has good groundwork skills and is very willing. How would you make the transition between the good ground stuff and actually getting someone into the saddle? Thanks.

Dear Vicci - a very good question. What we need to have in mind is this: horses associate and have different reaction patterns depending on mindset and adrenaline up and/or down. That means you can have a absolutely super horse on the ground - the horse only associate the rider in the saddle together with asking moving forward. you see it very clearly in the video with this horse. She does not associate any pain, scary movements or force when you brush her in the stable, or pick up the feet, or load her. Not necessarily under saddle with rider in a walk either. The bucks will come - when the horse gets that DVD in with all the associations to it, the horse will buck if it has become a learned reaction pattern.
On one demo we had a horse that started to buck when Monty demonstrated the giddy up rope on his own leg - he was not on the horse just standing in the middle of the round pen. As soon as he hit himself with it the sound triggered the bucking in the horse - that comes from wips in the past. When the horse stopped bucking, Monty tried to hit his leg with the giddy up rope again further away from the horse - the horse also had blinkers on - and with the sound the horse bucked again. So, the answer to your question is: Join-Up®, follow-up, buckstopper with saddle, dummy rider , longlining with dummy rider and then a very good rider after knowing the horse is FULLY well and sound, and ALL equipment is fine! Checked by vet with x.rays of the spine and chiropractor for the SI joint before any work. Delicate work! Do keep bringing those good questions and thoughts folks! Warmest CI Ann Lindberg

Great question Vicci;

I still don't agree with buckstopper. I do agree with Beryl however, that ONLY as a last resort, that being, the meat wagon or buckstopper, then ok....but, I have worked with some severe bucking horses....what I have done, and I only recommend this be done by a good horse handler/rider, and yes, you need some strength. It has worked every time for me. You know they are going to buck, so "get ready" and the split second they start, use your strongest side and crank them right around and bring that chin in as tight to the shoulder as you can and eventually if you have to up towards your own stomach area. They just can't buck now.
The second they stop, and they do have to stop, I release, but stay good and ready. The split second they start again, I bring them around again, this time, I hold for a few seconds longer. Sometimes they will immediately lie down, or in worse cases, throw themselves down, or at least start to, I release again. Once in a while they will continue to lie down, just stay on, if you are too afraid to, get off then just get back on. Keep repeating this. The most that I have had to repeat this is 3 times, and more severely each time. But it has worked. Yes, I know, there aren't too many riders who care to do this, but I am one and as I say, it has always worked for me. There is no pain involved, just overpowering them with brute strength. As we all know, horses, comparatively speaking have weak lateral neck movement. And, yes sometimes they will set themselves up for the sideways pull, but then, one simply reacts by pulling in the opposite direction, and with actually more ease because the horse will now inadvertently be helping.
I will say this, I did have one horse that I worked with years ago, that I did recommend being put down. She bucked no matter what you did, and let me tell you, we tried everything, and yes, admittedly some were painful methods eventually. I don't know what the owner's daughter did to her as she was raising this mare, (she wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, the daughter I mean) but this horse would kill any newborn of the cattle and other mares if she could get near them. And eventually would attack children and adults as well, if the adults had turned their backs to her....my goodness eh?
She attacked me with the intent to kill, but the owner thought she deserved a chance....oh well.
Now, over the years I have learned that horses are quite capable of ending up with problems of psychosis and related and I have seen some really weird behaviour that one could only attribute to treatment/handling and so on.
Even the Vienna School have some rather sad and woeful tales of some of their horses whom have developed psychological problems and they do take very good care of them...so, there ya go.
So, in conclusion and I guess in fairness to horse people out there who just don't have access to someone whom is willing to try some of mine and others methods, and the only alternative is the "meat wagon", well, maybe your only last resort is the buck stopper, but, you have to allow the slack to be commensurate with the severity of the bucking, I have seen some really bad lip tears that needed stitching and the horses couldn't be ridden for weeks anyway.
Good luck.

Thanks Paul, a really interesting point of view. The 'one rein stop' as you describe is also used I know for bolters but I have never seen an explanation/discussion on it being used for buckers. I know that I would never have the courage to use your technique, but I respect your riding ability and reasoning. I also think your warning is very valid, the buckstopper must have plenty of slack in it and be of the softest braid as what is the point if we are only going to cause more injury and pain?

Hi Vicci - sorry to take a little time to get back to you. I have a mother with Alzheimer's and when there are problems as I have just had I don't have time to do all the other stuff and get on the Uni. In relation to the methodology I was talking about it goes back to a wonderful trainer we have based in Australia (originally from Argentina), Carlos Tabernaberri - his website is Whispering Acres if anyone is interested in checking his credentials and philosophy. All work is based on gaining a relationship based on your confident, consistent, kind, leadership resulting in trust, obedience and respect from the horse but not using force and always being aware of the horse and how it is communicating. I have used his methods and also worked horses that have been trained by him and they are lovely to be around when you understand the way he does things but it is a simple approach and a lot of timing involved as per what Paul has mentioned previously. Everything is about getting the groundwork right and the horse willingly flexing laterally and following up with forequarter and hindquarter yields. It is not until this is done willingly with no pressure from lead ropes or reins (also Carlos only rides bitless) that you can contemplate mounting the horse and in the case of a bucker or bolter it is even more important. This needs to be done by a highly skilled rider of course that gets the timing just right so that if the horse starts to buck the flexion is asked for and the hindquarters can be disengaged and therefore the bucking stops (they have no choice, they cannot buck when they flex) - then the release from the rider as reward and then repeated each time the horse attempts to buck. Timing is everything but it is all done with no pain to the horse just using natural movement. Carlos has a great record of saving horses being sent to the knackery as being no good and will take all the time each individual needs. He doesn't have a set method but every day the flexion and lateral work is part of your time with your horse and enables this wonderful communication to happen. I can only vouch for what I have found with the horses I work with and it has been fantastic. My earlier point was, as Ann mentioned, humans are just that and there will be people that will want to use the buckstopper method regardless of how much Monty tells us that it is only for experienced people - that is human nature (for some) and the one that suffers with these people is the horse. And Beryl, I agree it is awful to see the number of horses heading to the knackery - here in Australia the racehorse industry alone is responsible for the mass slaughter of thousands of unwanted animals a year that simply cannot be rehomed and that is so sad. So Vicci that is my point of view on the subject and I do hope it answers some of your questions and please be assured that all I want to do is give my horses and any I work the best possible life I can. Nothing makes me happier than to walk out to the paddock and see how happy mine are - I try every day to learn more and be the best possible person I can be for my horses as it does start with us - we are the complicated ones - not the horses and it is our duty do our best for them. Cheers Jan

Hi Jan

Many thanks for taking the time to answer, much appreciated. I don't know Carlos' work, I will certainly look. I know the flexion work is a big part of many trainers repertoire but its not something I have ever seen/heard Monty talk about except in terms of overall 'lightness'.

Hi Vicci, I hope you do check out Carlos work - I think you will find it most valuable as you are a person who does put the time into the groundwork. Best wishes, Jan

Hi Jan - looked at Carlos' website etc. thank you. It echoes much of what I do/think but there is always more to learn. Sadly its the first time I have experienced not being able to get stuff via Amazon: to buy off his site is too expensive in terms of postage etc. however, there is a lot of good information and lots of good articles on the site, so thank you for that.

Vicci please let me know if I can help you by buying his book here and postin it over - may save on the cost. I am sure with your ethos for groundwork you would appreciate the content. Cheers Jan

Thats really kind Jan, thankyou.

I like Carlos' website, i too work in that kind of way - i'd never have got any where with my little mare otherwise!!!!!!!!!!
she' a dominant mare as was her mother; i worked for months with groundwork before i ever backed her to build a good bond with her & that is most essential.
I don't like the idea of the buck stopper, but as i said ONLY AS A LAST RESORT!
Disengaging the hind quarters is a very useful tool indeed i totally agree, timing is everything.

Dear all
Who knows me from the forum knows that I have quite an experience with the buck stopper. In my opinion you must have been using it to be convinced that it is not a cruel tool. I think if you agree to put a bit into the mouth of your horse you can put also a buck stopper.

Rudi

Rudi;

Well, I hate to have to agree with you, but I must say, you're right. There are infinitely more horses out there suffering from chronic bit problems and damage, than those caused by buck-stoppers. At least with a buck stopper there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the poor beasts, in that they are not used forever.
Cheers.

Keep the drive for bitless horses going everywhere - so much better for our equine friends. Jan

Very true, a great many horses are abused in the mouth with bits; there is a lot more information available now about which type of bit it likely to suit different mouth shapes, but as with everything else, it's a question of education.

i rode my mare for months off the Dually while very gently transferring the aids to the bit & trying to find what suited her, she's an Arab cross so the dished face means there's not much room for the tongue, so after trial & error, i found a Neue Schule Team up bit sits nicely & is a gentle double jointed bit. They have made huge strides in bit development in recent years & are very knowledgeable.

There does seem to be a problem in England re riding bitless as the insurance companies can refuse to pay up if you're involved in an accident & you don't have a bit on your bridle on the road.

Hi Beryl

Just an update, there has been huge debate about this and it has been clarified by the British Horse Society (BHS) and a speicialist lawyer in the field that insurance companies will not refuse to pay up for bitless bridle riding. What they will say is that you must demonstrate that the horse was under reasonable care and control. This pplies to any incident whether bitted or not. This means they can refuse to pay up where a horse was ridden in a bit and there was not reasonabe care and control.

Hi Vicci, many thank for the update, i wasn't sure what the situation is now, that's good to know!

Well I am flippin' furious. Here we are discussing the pros and cons of a buckstopper and someone today gave me a 'horse equipment' catalogue and what did I see in it? Something called a "Daisy Rein" - now doesn't that sound sweet and innocent. But for those of you that don't know what it is (I didn't ) I will explain. It is made of leather, looks like a rein, is made to be fixed (no flexibility or movement allowance) and the advert states as follows: "Everyone with small children will know the problems when the pony puts his head down and unseats the rider. This novel rein clips on both sides of the saddle and buckles onto the crown of the bridle, therefore simply solving this age old problem. It also assists in stopping horses fropm bucking". Can you believe it???? The damn thing won't let the horse bend its head down at all, can you picture the muscle strain on a horse wearing this for a couple of hours? And it only cost 23 pounds in leather, 10 pounds in nylon, so they can all have one, so much easier than teaching a horse not to drop its neck and so much easier than teaching children not t hang on t the reins in the first place. I am so irritated by this, and as I have few horsey friends (mine are non horsey) I needed to get it off my chest so please forgive me ranting but it does drive me mad that we invent all these gizmos and gadgets instead of educating horse and rider.

Hey Vicci;
Business as usual eh? When in doubt or don't know what the hell you are doing...use force and pain and to hell with the psychological and physical damage all this crap causes.
We should start a movement of some kind?...
Cheers,

Paul

I have heard of them but I didn't think they made them anymore. Well it just goes to show that its easier to use equipment than to spend time training handler and horse !!!! Hope you feel better Vicci - we were listening lol, Cheers Jan

Thanks Jan, appreciated :-) Paul, we should most definately start a movement, if you have a look at my post on "too young to start" I have suggested one. You up for it? ;-)

Absolutely....I am going to contact like minded people here and see what I can do from this end....will let you know asap.
Cheers,
Paul

Brilliant, looking forward to it....."The International Society for Ethical Horsemanship" - a working title? by all means dismiss it ;-)

Hey Vicci and Paul, I like the idea of a movement regarding ethical horsemanship and hope you get it off the ground. I have just been to a weekend clinic with Carlos Tabernaberri and have again seen the proof that there is no need for artificial aids for training and working with our horses. Carlos had a dozen horses, young, green and old all mixed in together with varying levels of experience from handlers and they were all bitless, working calmly in hand and under saddle by the end of the clinic in very windy and wild conditions (winter here). His quiet, sensible approach - ensuring all groundwork is well understood - created a marvellous harmony and very peaceful environment - living proof that whips, spurs, daisy reins etc are just not required. Cheers Jan

I also have a pet hate - that's a crupper to stop the saddle sliding up the neck!!!!!
Obviously, the saddle doesn't fit if it does that, but rather than sort out the saddle, I'm sometimes asked to fit a Dee ring to the back of it to fix a crupper to, my answer is NO, IT'S NOT RIGHT! For anyone who doesn't know what a crupper is (not many, i'm sure) it's a strap that is attached to the back of the saddle, goes along the spine to a loop that goes round the base of the tail where the skin is very thin & delicate & easily damaged as well as the tail being the end of the spine! Think of the pain that causes with the weight of a rider bouncing about on a saddle that's trying to migrate forwards & all the strain taken by the tail!