It would be great to have a few lessons on how to teach your horse to carry a rider in canter under saddle. My gelding and I are currently working on this. When he goes into canter, he takes one canter stride and then bucks. He is controllable after and stops/walks on after wards. He seems more confused than upset or naughty. He has a saddle that was made for him (and me), so saddle fit isn't the issue and I make sure that his cinch isn't too tight as well. Thank you.
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I second that! Also how to teach them the different leads on cue.
I have a few suggestions you might like to try: first, if you haven't done this already, I would saddle your gelding and in an arena, ask him to move through all three gaits without a rider, to allow him to adjust to moving with the tack on. Move him out briskly for a few minutes and let him get all the bucking out of his system BEFORE you get on. I've trained my mare to saddle and even now, after 3 years of being accustomed to carrying me, I always give her the opportunity to warm up and kick up her heels before I mount. This keeps us both sane and safe. It also gives me the opportunity to see how she is moving that day and to gauge how energetic she's feeling.
Secondly, I ponied her out on the trail with a saddle on quite a bit (weeks) before I ever got on her the first time, so she was very accustomed to the feel of it. I highly recommend this for green horses, and since I'm unclear on how much training your gelding has had, I thought I'd suggest this method to you as well. Since you are already riding your gelding, you may be past this point but may want to keep this as reference for next time.
Also, since my riding skills and age do not allow riding a hard bucking bronc, I have paid the trainer at the barn to work my mare in at the canter. That money was well spent, as although she is generally a very good, calm horse, she too decided to kick up her heels a few times when it came to cantering with rider for the first time, and my cowboy trainer was able to ride her through that. She's now progressing very well at the canter, and so am I--without unnecessary bruises :).
And lastly, please keep in mind that if you ask for the canter and he bucks and then gets to walk off, you are teaching him that if he bucks, he gets to walk- not canter. Rest (or a slower gait in this case) is reward. By all means, get him under control when he bucks, but keep him moving at the trot at least and then ask him to canter again, even if it's only a few strides at first. Reward him only when he complies. Don't slow to a walk or a stop until he's given you what you asked for. He'll work thru his confusion and the strangeness of hauling you around at the canter soon enough. Good luck!
I agree with Julie ! Bought 4 months ago a "trotter", don't know the word in English. It is a 9 year old mare, and she was racing before the sulky for years and years, in trot! She was not allowed to canter, so this I am learning her now. The first step I took, was to learn her or let her know that cantering is not a bad thing. She has connected people and canter as a bad thing so this I am trying to get out of her system. First: Let her free move in the round pen, give one time the instruction: C A N T ER! and when she accidentally did, applaud and let her know she did a great job!
Second : with the longlines ( double, as Monty does!)same instruction, when she canters by instruction : applaud!
Third: Now the saddle and bit in, same as above.
Furthermore, when she canters together with me in the round pen, when I didn't gave that instruction: keep applauding, say that she is doing a great thing! I never keep repeating the canter instruction, give it one or two times, when she starts to race in trot I just ignore her and let her know she can slow down by body language and say: WHOO, WHOO etc.
Now, after 3 months, she does her first canter when I ride her. It is sometimes that she wants to tell me : I would like to canter, do you agree? And I just encourage her and say: now, go on then, it is fine, and then she does a few meters canter, and I applaud from her back! give her a hugg and I assume she knows she is doing a great job.
I never punished her, just try to un-do the feeling this horse has that cantering and people are not allowed together! And it is such a great feeling to be dedicated to this process, to see my horse regain her thrust in people, as this was another problem. I am greatfull everything my horse has wanted to share with me!
Jessica
my daughther is 12 and has a green 6 yrs old gelding we have had him for 3months now and my daughter is doing very well with him, but when he goes in to canter he bucks and both times now my daughter has come off, he bucks when schooling him in the school but she sits these, now she is nervous about hacking him out. we have had a new saddle fitted as the other did not fit well and his back and body checked. please can you help i really dont want my daughter to stop riding i know we can get thro this with some help. he is a 15.2 irish sport horse. many thanks
FYI
Green horses will buck when asked to go forward at a fast gait. Juilies suggestion of lunging your horse before riding is a good idea. We do that with horses that are in training and get a little too hot when they are under saddle. It seems to take the steam out of them and they settle more quickly. Also when a horse starts to buck get his head up and he will not be able to buck as hard if at all. Since I assume you are riding with a bit you should also keep the halter on with a lead line held in your hand or tucked in your belt. Do not tie the line hard to the saddle. You will not like the results. Plus you could injure your horse.
cheers
I also found the lead changing videos on the Uni very helpful in getting the horse to take up the correct lead.
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The other thing that you have to teach your horse before asking for leads, is to move his rear end away from the pressure of your leg aids.
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This is so that when you ask for the right lead, for example, you are preparing your horse using your right leg to position his rear end to the left, so that his right front leg is striding out further during forward movement. And vice versa for the left lead. I think that's right, its a bit confusing when you are not in the saddle...
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Of course you have to get him cantering first before you can ask for this kind of thing, and the video lessons explain this really well.
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Good luck.
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Gen
I would also like a video from Monty showing what he suggests in how to teach a horse to canter. My horse I'm working with really does not like to canter much and will put her head down, and buck, kick out, and crow-hop, particularly when I first ask. It often takes a while for her to actually pick it up. We've started working with her from the ground again and she resists quite a lot there. We are going to get her checked out by a chiropractor and/or vet to make sure she is completely sound in the event that's the case. But it would be nice to have an actual video to visually see how to work with a green horse to teach them how to canter.
From my experience horses that buck when asked to canter tend to:
1. be full of spark from too much good food (spring grass) and not enough riding,
2. have a poorly fitting saddle or have had one in the recent past so that they have learnt to buck from the pain and now continue to do so,
3. have a sore back which is intensified by the rider bouncing on it in canter
4. have an inexperienced or nervous rider who is giving the horse the wrong signals eg asking it to canter with their legs and body but holding it in on the reins because of nervousness. When you ask the horse to canter it needs to be allowed to canter without rein pressure restricting its movements. If it canters too fast then use half halts don't just pull on the reins as this will just make it go faster.
Possible Solutions:
1. change the horses diet in order to reduce the protein and sugar content
2. check the saddle fit
3. have a professional check the horses back and legs and maybe try cantering in the three point position for awhile
4. have an experienced rider canter the horse for you. If this works then the rider needs to be re-trained and re-assured. Riding a quieter, better trained horse for awhile that is more accepting of poor riding is a good way to boost confidence.
Just re-read the other comments again here. Great advice already given! Julie's advice is great. It is so important to teach your horse all the gaits under saddle prior to attempting them on their back. Remember too that young horses do find it very hard to canter in circles with a rider initially so it is better to try cantering them in straight lines if you can. I guess I was a bit slack and responded too quickly not realising this was an old thread -apologies everyone for being a bit repetitive plus not reading all your the comments first.
Hi Jessica, I had the same experience as you! I had 2 ex-pacers (or trotters) who were frightened of cantering. They used to be punished for it and I had to totally re-wire their brains, what a job! It sounds like we both employed the same technique. I have both the fortune and misfortune of having my horses at a shared facility. It's great because there's always someone keeping an eye on your horse, people to talk to and great facilities to use, but it also means that people are always watching you learn and train, and boy did I look funny trying to get these boys to canter! I would chase them around and around yelling canter! canter! and skipping and waving whips or throwing ropes behind them until they broke into a canter, then I would back off, exhausted, and congratulate them excessively. I got pretty fit LOL. The people at the pony club would amuse themselves by watching me, telling me I was mad & that I shouldn't bother with OTT pacers/trotters, but it was so worth it! They are beautiful saddle horses now, they do indeed make me grateful too!
It has been great to re-read this old thread and all the good advice given here. I am currently helping a relatively inexperienced woman quieten and re-train an ex race horse. He is a big boy from one of the big racing studs 376 foal in 2002. He apparently was successful on the race course initially but then had a bad fall which damaged his back so since then he has been just left neglected and unhandled in a paddock by the syndicate - at least he was allowed to live! My horses are agisted in the adjoining paddock so I have been concerned about him for the three years that they have been there. Occasionally I managed to catch him for the farrier to shoe but he was very nervous and scared of people until re-assured. Now he has been be-friended by this lovely kind new neighbour and the owners have given her permission to go as far as she wishes with him. Knowing I had horses she asked for my help. It has been fun quietening him down and re-assuring him that humans are OK. He was obviously ear twitched in the past as he was terrified of being touched near the ears. He had an old traditional head stall left on him in the paddock for as long as I have known him as otherwise you could not touch him or put a head stall on. Now he is so quiet and trusting of us that he no longer needs the old headstall and comes straight up to us to be caught. Unfortunately we have been unable to do join up as the round yard is so small, omly 8 metres in diameter, but initially I did manage to move him around inside it until he accepted me so that we could handle him. His progress has been amazing as although he was terrified of people and obviously brutalised in the past he was not really vicious - only kicked out when really scared and would shake with fear. Most of our training has been done on the lunge with the dually and once again I applaud Montys dually as there is no way I could have held and re-trained this horse with a rope or conventional halter. We now can lunge him in walk and trot in a saddle with stirrups both up and down and he responds well to the change in commands. He is now relaxed in walk and trot but tends to still get frightened and confused when asked to canter and takes off in a gallop. Hopefully soon he will understand what we want but I have really appreciated everyones comments here. Just wish I had a round yard large enough to be able to send him off with his saddle on for a good join up under saddle. When he takes off in gallop on the lunge I go with him and can hold him until he turns and stops and is rewarded by the quick release on the dually. We then we go straight back to lunging in trot. Soometimes we have achieved a short canter prior to him taking off - he is getting better but it is slow progress as he is easily spooked. It seems that he may have been lunged in the psst but only to trot. I only use the lunge rein gently to move him on as anything else spooks him even though we have de-sensitised him to a wand without and with plastic bag, an umbrella etc. In his de-sensitising lesson he was initially scared but amazingly good as he did trust us and here the very small round yard was a plus. I play with him each Sunday morning and his new friend checks him and handles him a bit daily. This Sunday I hope to have him canter correctly under lunge and then try to get on him in the small round yard where he cannot go anywhere but great to read everyone's thoughts here. My gut feeling is that this beautiful horse maybe unridable due to his former back injury as there is quite a bump where his back was previously damaged. He did buck initially when askded to trot under saddle. Fingers crossed - if he bucks on Sunday I am convincec that it will be his back thats the problem. I am fairly light - hence me to try first!
Lol don't hurt yourself Maggie! It was great to read your story- I love hearing re-training and rescue stories! Just out of curiosity- as I'm sure you've looked at this- does he canter much in the paddock?
I don't envy you your challenge of trying to get such a horse to do a nice canter on the lunge without an appropriate round pen :/ The process is obviously going to take much longer but sounds like you'll get there in the end!
I know, I don't know where I'd be without my dually either! When you say that he turns and stops and is rewarded by the quick release on the dually, is the dually rewarding him coming to a halt after rushing off or is it rewarding him settling down into a normal canter (that you are ultimately training towards) after rushing off?...
Good, luck, I hope you don't come off (or that at least you don't hurt yourself if you do!)
Thanks so much for you comments eternal_student. Your first question - yes he does canter in the paddock and on colder days he gallops around and bucks like crazy to get warm which suggests that his back should be OK. However he doesn't roll which worries me as I have often been told that being able to roll from side to side is a sign of a good back. As a child my grandfather used to tell me this is the way you can value a horse! So many pounds (before decimal currency in Oz) per roll! It would be interesting to know if anyone else has heard of this or is it just an "old man's tale"? Your second question is harder - he takes off in gallop I follow him on the dually but my body is braced to hold him as firmly as possible but I use a give and take (jerky) action on the dually calling to him and saying "whoo boy" as he takes off. He stops abruptly -from gallop to stop in a few strides when he accepts the discipline of the dually. As soon as he stops I release pressure immediately and he then swings towards me and comes back willingly but nervously. I don't allow him to come all the way back as I don't wish him to be rewarded for taking off so when he gets within about 8 metres I gemt;y send him out again onto his lunging circle at trot and he calms down again fairly quickly. I am lunging him with a loose lunge rein on the circle so there is no pressure on the discipline ring of the dually when he is being well behaved except when I ask for a downward transition - then a little jerk and the new voice command. If he settles down effectively I do ask for canter again after he has done a few trot circles but often the same thing happens. He is improving and will now occasionally canter a couple of circles for me before he spooks and takes off. Sometimes he starts cantering faster then spooks, if he gets unbalanced he spooks and as soon as I ask him to trot again he spooks. I am yet to get him to slow down back to trot without taking off so I still have a long way to go and it is hard work so sometimes I do stop before we have achieved much. If he spooks really badly and I am tired then I will just lunge him in trot for awhile, then walk then finish. Now when asking him to come back to trot I am trying to avoid using any pressure on the dually in case this spooks him and just use my voice. Luckily his paddock is fairly flat and hazard free where we work otherwise it would not be possible. I have thought about making a temporary round yard out of electric white tape but my gut feeling is that it would be more dangerous for both of us as when he spooks I am sure he would just gallop straight through it. He really needs a nice strong round yard and then I believe we could make progress much more quickly.!
Just a quick up date. The ex-race horse, Cash, cantered on the lunge for me yesterday and didn't spook or take off so it finally happened!! Plus I mounted him and managed to quietly walk him around the little round pen before I dismounted. It seems that we are finally making real progress.
Well done, good to hear! That's all the hard, consistent work you're putting in!
Thanks eternal_student - he is now making really good progress. Cantering beautifully on the lunge and responsive to the commands. I am now riding him in his paddock - lots of trotting and we are going to start some pole work to try to strengthen his back. Not cantering on him yet. Vet checked him thoroughly yesterday and thank goodness he doesn't have wobbler's syndrome but his back needs strengthening and we now know that he did previously have a bad fall on his back in a trailer which ended his racing days. Sadly my friend who asked for my help with him is feeling a bit frustrated as she thinks the progress is too slow. I had hoped that she would join Monty's uni. so she would understand more of what I was doing but I don't think she has. I think Cash has made amazing progress and try to tell her that slow is fast in these cases. She also wants to ride him more herself which I can understand but she is inexperienced with no riding instruction in the past and has a very strong seat and hands. She has also been picking up advice from some more traditional trainers and is beginning to question what I am doing and wants to toughen him up a bit with some rougher methods. I was hoping to strenthen his back and help him further with the aids before she started to ride him much so have kept her rides to a minimum and at walk only. It seems now that I may not be able to do this any longer so will now probably need to butt out. I don't tend to hang around when I am not appreciated even though I hate to leave a horse that needs my help. In my experience animals are great and I have helped so many horses overcome their problems but people seem to let their egos take over, misconstrue my intentions and then stuff it up for their horses. I am too ready to help out when asked to where horses are concerned and it seems that I keep on learning the same lesson so I must be a slow learner too. Ooops thats my gripe for the day!
Mmm! No longer allowed to help with Cash and totally my fault. Becuase of my concern re Cash's back I was too honest re my friends riding abilities and she naturally didn't take that very well - for Cash's sake it is a pity I didn't keep my mouth shut. Do hope she continues to look after him and finds someone gentle to help finish his re-training. Probably the best outcome for me as I was growiing too fond of him and he was too responsive to me which didn't help the situation. Shed a few tears to-day but that is life when you love horses. Now I can concentrate on my own horses and they all need my attention. Never a good idea to get too involved with someone else's horse. My ex friend is very possessive of him even though she doesn't own him so we were beginning to have problems. I guess I am a pretty a horrible person as I find it easier to say good bye to people when they misread me than animals. A bit of soul searching going on here!!
OK, as happy as I was to hear that Cash didn't have Wobbbler's, I'm just as sad to hear it ended like this for you.
But you are not a horrible person for caring for the well-being of a horse. If you don't - who will?
Thanks, Kicki.
Aw Maggie I'm sorry to hear about you and Cash. Hang on for a while though, your friends ego is a bit bruised and she may yet come round. You showed her and Cash a different way and while she may not want to see it yet who knows whats in the future. My dad used to say "You can hold the mirror up but you can't make people look in it and see what's looking back at them". Keep smiling, we're right behind you ;-)
Thanks Vicci - not sure if I can go back myself but I guess I will for Cash's sake if approached again.
Hi :) I've just started my Appaloosa colt, Flynn, who I have handled since birth. We have a brilliant relationship and he is absolutely perfect on the ground. I can even signal him to turn, stand or back up from a distance with no halter or lead rope. When ridden he goes lovely in walk and trot but when we get to canter its a bit strange. He has the odd phase every now and then of acting like the perfect riding horse. Cantering on cue and even from a stand to canter. But most of the time he canters a few strides and then broncs to a stop, acting fine afterwards. I always use the same saddle and it fits lovely so I don't think that the problem. Do any of you think that turning in small circles or schooling with the Dually as he tries to buck, and then asking him back into canter afterwards and repeating if he does it again would work?
Maybe... if you get his back checked out by a professional (or 2) first...