You have probably already tried this, but maybe you're standing too far in front of the horse when your sending her away.

Hi Katie; could you clarify things a bit more please. Do you ride her? Does she have problems going forward when ridden or only on the ground? Do you have a good relationship with her/is she respectful and responsive to you when on lead rope? I guess that as you mention that she won't go forward on a lunge either you mean its a general issue. If thats the case I can suggest the following (1) Be clear why you want to 'do' Join up; if she has a good relationship with you and is already 'joined up' then consider why you need to send her away in the first place. (2) Single line lunging (as you will know from Montys book) is not recommended (though Monty does say the damage is much less at walk and trot than canter) (3) I found a plastic bag on the end of a stick (better than a whip behind them (not using it to touch them - a lunge whip can accidentally catch the horse and cause pain) brilliant at encouraging horses to move on. If you are longlining you may need a second person to help with the bag/stick waving. Important thing to rememeber that as soon as you get the spped/gait you want stop flapping the bag/stick i.e. take the pressure off, if she slows again without asking apply the bag/stick again. Hope that helps a bit :-)

Yes I ride her and yes she's as unresponsive to go forward riding as on the ground.
I use Monty's dully halter on the ground and so now she is much better with me as far as respect goes, but it has made no difference in helping her to go forward when asked either ridden or on the lunge. In fact she is worse when ridden.
I actually haven't tried the plastic bag on the whip. I planned to use it to desensitise her like Monty does anyway so I might try that. Other than the bag there really isn't anything else I can do to get her to move forward that doesn't require contact from a whip of some sort which I do not want to do even though my well meaning horsie friends tell me I may need to if she is 'that bad'.
My previous horse was a TB so totally opposite my Percheron mare! My mares mom was a TB but it must have got lost in the gene pool somewhere! Lol
Thankyou very much for answering me. I am very frustrated with it all at the moment as you can imagine. Monty didn't have a horse that didn't go forward in the horses he helped at Caboolture unfortunately. It would have been good to see that. Thanks again.

Hi Katie - I know it can be frustrating but please dont listen to your 'horsie friends' - she does not need the whip used on her; you don't want her to move forward because she is frightened you will hit her. Try the plastic bag on a stick not a whip first before you begin desensitising her to the bag. Good luck!

If all that fails, get a trainer in Katie! (what part of the world are you in?)

I am in Queensland Australia. Sunshine Coast specifically.
I know I don't want her frightened. I want a life partner and she is a lovely natured young mare who I am responsible for training. What I do or do not do is very important especially as she is so young.
I have done Parelli but like Monty's gentle methodology.
How can I get her to move forward when I am riding her though? Obviously I won't ride with the plastic bags on the whip.
Monty suggested the pacifier which I might try but what other options are there?

I am in Queensland Australia. Sunshine Coast specifically.
I know I don't want her frightened. I want a life partner and she is a lovely natured young mare who I am responsible for training. What I do or do not do is very important especially as she is so young.
I have done Parelli but like Monty's gentle methodology.
How can I get her to move forward when I am riding her though? Obviously I won't ride with the plastic bags on the whip.
Monty suggested the pacifier which I might try but what other options are there?

Have you tried to ride her in a group of horses?
Rudi

I have no access to other horses unfortunately. We are on our own plus cows around that's it.

Have you tried using a giddy up rope?

Hi Katie if you can get her to move forward OK with the dually I would try concentrating on that for awhile. Watch the videos on the dually over and over so that you know that you are using it effectively - must have been so great seeing Monty in action live! Lucky you. Pity you couldn't have had your horse accepted for a demonstration. Initially keep her moving with you in the sweet spot at walk and stop, then get her to walk faster with you and stop and then try to get her to trot beside you and stop with you. It will take some time to get her to trot and you will need to use the dually effectively to get her to respond. Say 'trot' or 'trot on' when you ask for it as this will help her form the connetion between the command and what you want her to do which can later be transferred to when you are on her or when you are lunging her. Once you have her moving forward effectively on the dually when both walking and trotting in the sweet spot then try doing the same with her further away from you. Stay with her in the sweet spot but further away and if moving in circles keep them as large as possible. If you make it this far then you can try lunging her - you may still need the stick and plastic bag to get her to move forward and to trot - remember the command too. She sounds as if she is very quiet, very trusting and very laid back and 'joined up' so trying to get join up could be difficult and frustrating for you both. I would only try it again if you have real discipline/disrespectful/trust problems as this is where it is really great. Like viccihhi I suggest that single line lunging is OK for walk and trot particularly if you keep some slack in the lunge rein which is not the correct method of lunging. Later once you have her moving for you in walk and trot on the single lunge rein then you could try the double lines. Remember she is very young so I wouldn't try canter at this stage and keep your lessons short - about 15-30 minutes is enough at this age. Plus I would also keep your rides very short as she is still growing and her bones and muscles need to adjust to a rider. How high is she? The Percherons I have known have all been quite large horses so she still may have quite a bit of growing to do. Warmbloods tend to take 5 years to grow to their full size and need to be gently ridden when younger than this.

Hi again Katie - lost a bit of precious time to-day but it has been fun. Just re-checked the loading videos on horseandcountry.tv UK for Emlaw and realised these are the ones that helped me so much with my dually work. Check out how Kelly Marks uses the dually in these three videos:
1. Horsemanship essentials - Episode 1 at http://www.horseandcountry.tv/episode-monty-and-kelly-horsemanship-essentials-loading
2. Horsemanship essentials - Episode 9 at http://www.horseandcountry.tv/episode-monty-and-kelly-horsemanship-essentials-linesmanship
3. Horsemanship essentials - Episode 20 at http://www.horseandcountry.tv/episode-monty-and-kelly-horsemanship-essentials-leading-loading

Enjoy and I hope they help!

Oops 3
should read:
3. Horsemanship essentials - Episode 20 at http://www.horseandcountry.tv/episode-monty-and-kelly-horsemanship-essentials-learning-lead-and-load

Oh wonderful thanks for your detailed e-mails they are very much appreciated!

She is about 15.3 hands at the moment. I was told she wouldn't grow any taller just fill out now?
I use voice commands a lot. I agree they are great. I just have to remember to use the when riding more!
I will watch the dually halter videos again as you suggest. I like your suggestions of advancement in detail as well Thankyou for that, much appreciated.
What's the difference between using the dually halter father away in the sweet spot and lunging single rein? I gather it's the position I stand in such as one is in the sweet spot the other I am driving her from the driving range area is this correct?
I also purchased the double lunge lines from Monty at the event. Should I not use them until she is responsive with just the one line and the dually halter in both the sweet spot and lunging positions?
Thanks once again for your very helpful responses. :-)

Hi there Katie,
Have you tried casting the long line at her? And walking straight at her from the rear? (but not directly behind her because that could be dangerous and pointless as she wouldnt be able to see you). What do you feed her? Is she a good doer or possibly a little overweight? Maybe give her banana as that is a high energy giving food you could put some in her feed. Or if the banana doent work try switching her onto some other high energy feed maybe? If she is responsive on the ground in the Dually halter then maybe try getting her used to moving quickly at not much notice so maybe walk her in a circle and then halt for a couple of seconds then set off at a run and try and coax her to follow you?

Here are some suggestions, but i guess the key here is probably persiverance and patience but I'm sure you will succeed :)

thanks,
Abi

I don't know much about Percherons but if she is only 3 I feel she could still grow a bit. Regardless her muscles need to develop before you ride her more frequently and for longer rides. Yes lunging is a little different to having her further out on the daully. When lunging you will be driving her forward from about her flank area and she will be moving by herself around you. You may still move with her but she is no longer at the sweet spot picking up the signals from your pace so now she needs to know to respond to your commands.

Plus when lunging you should be well out of her kick zone as she should be at least 5 metres away from you. No doubt there are some good videos on lunging on Youtube. If you have done some Parelli work then you would be familiar with lunging on the rope halter. In your case the single line lunging is just a stepping stone on the progress towards lunging with the double lines. It is suggestion as a stepping stone to help you to encourage her to move forwards at your command. I would make sure she is responsive to you in walk and trot on the dually and the single line lunge prior to trying with the double lines. Good luck with it

Hi Katie, I just read alltheletters from you and the many answers. One thing that was not mentioned son far is the body language. I had watched Monty's lessons from Florian Oberparleiter, the young man from Ausria. I found this amazing and tried it with my 15 year old Icelndic. I have this wonderful little gelding since he is was born and he is such a pet and just lately I came to another stable where they do the Parelli work. But since about 20 years I have followed Monty Roberts method and I love it and intend to stay with it. My Icelandic would just so walk along beside me and I had a similar experience with him as you have. Now after watching Flo's lessons, I went out there and was really paying attention what I did with myself. Then when I walked him, I started to pick up my energy, looked up and ahead with my head up and the thought on my mind : here we will go! And to my surprise the horse came with me! We walked faster and then he even trotted along with me! He as never done this before and maybe this is something for you to try. Make it really obvious, at the beginning have your energy down, then pick up your head and also think of going faster. It is amazing how animals seem to know what you are thinking. Good luck.

Hi Katie Re: single/double lining - please can I suggest you watch Montys videos again on this subject. Single line lunging is NOT recommended, Monty describes it as "one of the worst pieces of horsemanship" however,as he points out, there are ways of limiting the effect i.e. use walk and trot (not canter - you can get a disunited canter from this - this is not a one off/myth I see this happen in horses), work both sides equally, change direction often, dont use a cavesson noseband and possibly use elasticated side reins (great care needed here if your horse is not used to side reins and they must be elasticated and put on loosely). Ideally, it is better to use double lines, especially so that you prevent all the inherent problems of single line lunging - all Montys videos on this subject or on the site. Make sure your body position is clear (i.e. dont get in her way) and use the plastic bag on a stick (as mentioned earlier) behind her to drive her forward.

If you are not confident in doing this as it takes a bit of handling getting all those factors right (and there's lots of opportunity to get it wrong!) please consider getting a professional in to help you. If the Monty Roberts instructor is not near you in Aus maybe s/he will be able to recommend someone nearby. Best of luck katie.

Is she sluggish in general? Parasites will cause them to be lazy, and yes a horse can be fat and have worms, seen many fat horses get energized after a good worming program. I know how frusterating it is, my Tenn Walker was 16 hands and he was laid back, when I asked to git up it took alot to get him to "trot/gait" on a lead line. When up in the saddle moving quick was not an issue. But for endurance riding they want you to trot your horse before the event, even with someone with a whip behind him all he did was walk faster and I couldn't run as fast as his walk... I just left it at dead head much safer, as a trail horse he was number one and I never did get him to be quick footed in haulter unless scared..

Ref the Percheron. 3 is young. I have a 7 year old percheron cross and he is still growing. We only started really working with him at age 6 for groundwork and up to about 6 mths ago did light riding. He too is not a quick mover. The plastic bag at the end of the whip works pretty well for him, although he tended to slow down quickly. Once we worked on it many times he was much better.

Katie--I encountered the same problem with "lazy" horses I worked with doing Join-Up and long-lining. Best thing I learned to do was how to RAISE MY ADRENALINE (like thinking in capital letters!). I am naturally a low-energy, calm person, so I have a calming effect on the "wild" or high-energy, frightened horses, but I am having to learn how to RAISE my energy to help motivate the "relaxed," so-called "lazy" ones. Horses will match your energy. Monty can even control his heart rate to get the horse to match it.

Also, I tend to over-use cues like vocal commands, slapping the lines, etc. Sometimes, less is more--the more I use these aids, the more I end up actually "desensitizing" my horse to them. Sometimes I'd use a plastic bag on a stick at the same time as the body language to reinforce its meaning, then take the plastic bag away to find that she'd be more sensitive to just the body language. Along those lines--I have to be very diligent about not getting "sucked into the horse"--I tend to want to get closer to them to "chase" them, but if you get too close you actually hit the pressure zone that makes them stop!

Also, check out Monty's use of the "claw"--opening his hand and fingers and showing his horse the palm of his hand, like an outstretched cat's claw.

Lastly--I noticed in one horse that her "laziness" was dependent on temperature. She's from Iceland so my guess is she actually physically can't handle the heat as well.