There is something wrong in your communication with the horse. Probably your are not experienced enough to work with a stallion. I think you should try to contact an expert. If nobody is available take some personal experience with horses that are easier to handle and come back to the difficult one later. It is possible to perform a "Join-Up" without sending the horse away: see the lessons about catching a horse on the pasture.

Thank you for your comments but please to not assume that you know my experince!!! or to judge me and my relationships with my horses. I have worked with plenty of horses and Join up has always worked very successfully. I have been working with horses since I was 3 years old and have trained plenty of horses,many people have ruinned though rough treatment. The stallion that I am talking about was a wild Kaimanuia Pony - never been touched mustered in 2009 - nobody was willing to work with him, I was told good luck at catching him yet I caught him in 10 mins, good luck with grooming him - he was groomed and his mane unmatted in 2 hours (Due to the work I needed to do to unmatt his mane!) I now have a saddle on his back, bridle on him - but doing Join up is proving to be a little more difficult, I have a VERY VERY experinced trainer (Who has personally worked with Monty Robert) and everything he has suggested has not worked yet - I have asked the question to see if anyone else has ideas as he will not lunge - so I am unable to do join up I have watched the join up on pasture - but either way it still involved getting the horse to move? This pony will not move and if given the chance will charge - I am the only one who has gotten this far with him - get trying to get him to take the next step is proving to be a challenge.

Hi Razzle,
Congrats on getting a Kaimanuia pony! Can you clarify your use of the word 'lunge'? Lunging has nothing to do with Join-Up so I'm just wondering about that? Lunging in my understanding is sending the horse around in a circle on the end of a single line. But Join Up involves the horse in a safe enclosure, large enough to give freedom of choice to leave you and to choose to come back to you, without any attachments at all.
I managed to get hold of a copy of Monty's 'You and Your Wild Horse' and got heaps of helpful stuff from that. If you haven't seen it yet, it might give some more ideas. One of the many aspects shown is how he uses an already trained riding horse to help the mustang to learn. All the best!

Hi
I have a stallion as well, but I don't have problems with him. My question would be, is your stallion herd bound. By that I mean if he is in the round pen with you does he constantly try to look out to see his herd and not paying attention to you? The other question I haveis, does your horse understand what you want him to do and just refuses to do it? Can you lung him in a small circle using just the lead rope? Maybe if you can get his feet moving either forward or sideways he will then move when off lead.
I also noticed that Monty is continually tossing his lead rope to the rear of the horse to help move it out.
Good luck and enjoy your challenge.

Dear Razzle
Sorry that I have underestimated your experience. Personally I think first of a problem of health to rule out. If the horse is galopping on the pasture this is not very probable. When he does not move from a psycological problem there are two strategies: 1. Accept the lightest movement forward as a fist step and go on gradually. 2. Take the hypothesis that he is desensitized and go from a light stimulus of 10% immediatly at 100% and then back to 10% until the horse learns: if I don't react to 10%, 100% will follow.
The last option that is not included in Monty's school would be a clicker training. Instead of working with negative instant consequences you can work with positive instant consequences and better motivation.
Sorry for the missunderstanding.
Rudi

Hi Razzle,
How we respond to people is often a good indicator of how we respond to horses when under pressure. Based on your response to Rudi's well meaning answer to your initial question - I'd guess you may take things personally when working with your pony instead of cool-headedly seeing what is missing from the picture. No one else is standing in your shoes so only you'll know what is missing. Perhaps get a friend to video you working with him and then unemotionally assess your work to see if you can see what you're doing wrong. All work has to be incremental so the steps may be too large? In Karen Pryors clicker training resources she gives people a step by step form for them to fill out. Starting with green right through to the desired behavior outcome. It can sometimes be a ufil tool to help you stay focused and recognize when progress is being made. I' m sure Monty would be interested in commenting on your video as well.
Regards
Leigh, NZ

PS No such thing as a "stubborn horse"

Thank you to all the positive advice - no hard feelings Rudi - just important that you don't judge peoples expereince when you don't know them. K.D in Kiwi land I meant lunging - just getting him to move forward - I will look at Montys book sounds interesting. Dennis you are right he is herd bound - he is paddocked with two other Kaimainuia horses both also unbroken one a foal other the mother and a ridden horse, but unfortunaty not my horse so I cannot dictate how he is paddocked - he is the neighbours - I am getting a foal in the next muster 2012. I know a little about clicker training with my dog - so will look into this more. Leigh I respond to horses better than I respond to people - they don't judge... But thanks for your resource about Karen Pryors I will look her up. Will let you know how it turns out - I am going away this week to work with a large herd of Kaimanawas some broken some not - going to teach the owners how to make bitless brides. so unfortunately will not be getting back to this stallion until next week. Thanks again.

Hi Razzle This sounds frustrating - in one of Monty's books he describes doing a demonstration with an Irish Draught stallion that was dangerous and charged him. It wouldnt go away from the tossed rope and had no respect for Monty. Monty had to leap out of the round pen. I believe he decided to distract the animals attention by using a lasoo rope around the horses neck just to get it moving. i think he tossed it onto the horse then just let the horse run?? In other words not pull on it or anything harsh. Then he got the stallions attention back in the usual way. Very good luck - let me know how it goes. By the way, what type are Kaimainuia horses - Im thinking TB types??

Well hello Razzle. I know its been a while since you put this post, just wondering how your getting along. In my expierence in problem solving i have messed with some outlaws. I have noticed that at the beginning of join-up Monty refers to horses being a prey animal, and the human being the predator. What i have tried and have had tons of success with is to crouch toward the hindquarters and move toward him until he engages and then stand up right for a reward. Then continue to do this until he fully engages and wants to flee from the predator but still join up once he regonizes what your teaching him. Don't know if that will help, but has helped me in alot of ways. Good luck

Razzle,

Well done on having the confront to help this stallion. A lot of folks would say no thanks, as stallions are a handful to be sure.

I have a suggestion, because I had a horse I worked with at MRILC that also would not move out around the round pen for J-U. I tried sending him off both at a distance and quite close up (closer than I should have been, really) and I could not get him unstuck. He actually wasn't paying any attention to me-I could have been a fly for all he cared. He didn't understand the concept of moving off of pressure at all. Remember that horses are natuarlly into pressure animals-we teach them to move away. Anyway, this horse would just freeze up no matter the pressure put on him to move, so instead of doing a J-U right away as that was impossible, on Maya Horsey's advice (the lead instructor at MRLIC), I and the other students took him aside and taught him other basics. I worked on consistently getting him to move his hips and shoulders away, as he would need that in order to be ridden, and on respecting my space. Some of the other students put him to work long lining both in and out of the round pen. I also put in a lot of time just teaching him to lead correctly, as he wanted to tow me along. It took a good 2 1/2 weeks, and I was despairing of ever getting a J-U done, but 2 days before I was due to leave, we got the J-U done on him. He just needed a little work to show him that he actually needs the communication line, leadership and trust that J-U can provide. By doing some other easy groundwork first, we showed him the value of joining up because he had a better understanding that his human handlers could move his feet at will.

I'm glad you have a Monty trainer to call on for advice. That's very wise of you to use that person. Sometimes two sets of eyes will see what one missed. Good luck!

thank you all for your good advice, he is really starting to come along and is almost being ridden. but its a real shame because the family is moving to england and their taking him with them so they keep all their kaimanawas in a pack, so unfortunatley they are taking him half brocken but they dont mind. i was breaking him in just so they had the option to ride him but all they want was to keep him as a paddock pony which is a real waste because their horses had great potential to become amazing show ponys. but its their horse and i cant do anything about it. i hope he has a nice life in england.
and thanks again for all your advice it really helped a great deal he is leading properly now and he is starting to acknowledge my space but sometimes he trys to be boss and gos to bite you. but he is great if you are aware at all times.
razzle

Hi Razzle,
Good for you speaking up to defend yourself. I too have been judged before anyone understood my background. Don't take it personally, it only hurts for a while.
Leigh, that was not called for and you obviously do not have much experience if you say there is no such thing as a stubborn horse.
Trust me I my 55 years of experience I have come accross a FEW, shall we say and ponies are the worst.
Many horse trainers will tell you stay away from ponies, mares and stallions.
Even some geldings, if gelded later, they can be a handful and take a lot more time.
You hang in there Razzle, you'll do just fine. With Monty's help and a trainer so close by, I sure do envy you.
The very best to you,
Ronda Bergeron

I keep hearing the suggestion of clicker training. Have any of you used it?
Basiclly what it is, you use a small mechinisium that makes a sound and you also feed the horse for rewards.
Monty very clearly says, DO NOT HAND FEED A HORSE, it causes bitting!!!!
If we are going to use Monty's methods then do so. If not it will confuse the horse and the forum.
Razzel has the best, come on, a trainer using Monty's methods, being with Monty. How much better training could one get.
Be real, will ya. And yes I'm cranky about this, I'm tired of hearing this and people being judged wrongly.
Answer the question without assuming, give good suggestions and stop scoulding, we do not need mothers here, we need helpers.
Monty is a calm and loving person and when he gives advice it is helpful without being judgmental.
We all get frustrated when working with our horses, and if anyone says they don't then they are lying. We are doing our best and that is what counts here.
SUPPORT !!!!!!
Ronda

Ronda
I thought I was the only one that got cranky :) Sometime communicating with each other is more difficult than communicating with our horses. You are right that people, myself included, become sensitive to criticism that is intended to help not hurt.
From what I can tell everyone has been able to gain more by everyones input whether we agree with it or not.

Cheers and keep smiling

Dennis

Thank you for that Ronda and Dennis
My pony Razzle is a different pony since the training the monty roberts way! Alot of people keep saying to me... "Do you still ride that really physco horse - you know the bolting one, one that you couldn't control?" and I answer - "Yes this is that very same horse... as Razzle stands looking like an angel!!! (NOT) a instructor said "Oh Razzle is such a calm pony... I looked at her and said , yeah na she is not you should have seen her last season - I couldn't even get on her back".
I have heard of clicker training I do it with my dogs but not the horses - I am currently building a round arena which will help with my training and have applied at Lingfield University to do the horse Phychology paper thought it would give me more an idea how the horse thinks.
Thanks again for your word of support.

Hi Razzle,
I have been doing more research on different breeds and have a posting about different breeds the members have.
I would be interested in you telling me more about your Kaimanuia pony, the University and your training program.
Please feel free to make a posting on the site; horse breeds.
Thank you
Ronda Bergeron