Oh, OH, the terrible threes. Lots of patience is needed.
It's like having a punk teenager in your care!!!
I have one too!
Ronda

Candi
Your horse is not respecting you and has been able to get away with it. You have to be more forcefull in your handling of him in the round pen. If he is not respectful of you and sees that he can just stand there you have lost. That being said my solution to try would be to put a halter or better yet a dually halter on him have a lunge whip with a plastic bag or a piece of cloth tied to the end. Holding the lead rope in one hand and the lunge whip in the other start to back him rapidly by putting pressure on the halter and easing the pressure when he moves and reapplying the pressure when he stops. Basically you will be bumping him backwards quickly. Use the lunge whip by waving it in front of him but no higher than chest level. You don't want to create a head shy horse. Your horse should be acting very nervous at this point and if he is stop moving and let him stand for a few seconds then walk a couple of circles with him. If he balks or pulls on the lead rope repeat the backing process over until he starts to respect you and your space.

Don't be afraid to make your horse afraid of you, but don't terrify him. There is a difference and the results are much different. Having your horse afraid of you should get him to start moving at a fast trot in the round pen. Following Monty's method or having him flee from you in both directions until he starts to say I want to be with you and you can be the boss. Watch as many join up video demonstrations that Monty has posted to get a real understanding with regards to Join up. Be patient with yourself and your horse, but exert your authority. Remember to keep your adrenaline down so your horse will understand that you are not going to hurt him but you are also not going to allow him to be the boss.

Cheers

Hey Candi

I wouldn't follow the advice of being okay about your horse being -just a little, that's fine- afraid of you. Never, not even a little, is that okay. Being the leader and having your horse respond to your well spoken language or just moving away from you with fear are two VERY different things. Keeping this in mind, I don't know how long and in what way you have been working yourself and how you've handeled your horse or what it's upbringing is like. The suggestion of putting one -or a few- plastic bags at the end of a whip is good because of the noise your horse will be more likely to move away. At that moment the horse will be a bit starteled by the noise, not scared of your person. Important. Working with the Dually is also very valueable, backing up definately, but if I were you I would just start it in the traditional way, just the Dually and a lead rope. If you can't get it done like that it is you who needs more training, then the horse. You can learn together ofcourse, but in a nice way, no? Lots of good videos on here, check them out, quite a few times, the more you see, the more you learn. Look at yourself, are your questions towards your horse clear, how about body language, eyes, ...? Just keep practicing, be the leader and keep the horses fear of you -even just a little- out of the picture.
Good luck and have lots of fun!

Phillis
Perhaps I used the wrong word for what I was relating. If your horse does not pay any attention to you you need to get his attention and that that you mean business. If you watch Monty he opens his fingers on his had as if it were a claw and shows this to the horse to help move him away. The horse is afraid of his hand thinking he is a predator. That is the level of fear that I am talking about.

Hi Candi
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Both Dennis and Phyllis make good points here. But at the end of the day, Join-Up is about controling movement. The leader of the heard moves the heard and makes the decisions. You have to demonstrate that you are a good leader and a safe place to be.
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Your horse is not respecting you by not moving away and you need to move him on and keep him going for the required flight distance in each direction (approximately 500 to 600 meters) before turning him back in the original direction to commence your conversation with him prior to Joining-Up.
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I met a lady recently who told us that her horse lay down on her! How's that for controlling movement! But he got up and moved on when she applied more pressure.
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You could try the plastic bags on the end of a stick to help you get your horse to flee from you when you release him on commencement of your Join-Up process.
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The other important thing that should be mentioned here is when you turn your horse back in the original direction to commence your conversation, allow him to come down to a walk. From what you say, I think he will probably stop and turn in on you and want to initiate the Join-Up. If he does do this, don't let him, just gently keep him walking on and ask him to Join-Up with you when YOU are ready.
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Don't make him wait for ever - just get him to take a few more steps - but make sure you are the one asking him to come into you.
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If you let him come in when he first asks, once again, he is controlling his movement and your conversation.
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Don't give up, keep trying and it would be great if you could let us know how you go :-)
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Kindest regards,
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Gen

Hi all,
For me with a punk teenager (3 yrs old) She NEEDS to respect me or she will run me over.
When Dennis says your horse needs to fear you I believe he means to absolutely do as you say when you say, using whatever means that is needed, non-violent!!!
Join-up only works if the horse knows you mean business.
When Monty is in the arena, does he stand there thinking, Oh my, what shall I do.
No, he gets that horse moving, you sound like you have a remedial horse and unless you get control now you could be hurt.
They tend to be unpredictable and dangerous. Unless you have the guts to stand up to this horse, no amount of join-up is going to work.
Firm body language, hands waving, moving towards it with a head-mare look on your face will get this horse moving.
They read EVERY subtle movement and feeling, be aware of this when you go in.
Do you think the head mare, in a herd, puts up with nonsence, no, she means business and you need to as well.
Keep your adrenline down, do not be angry but be firm as you would be with that shopping mall nightmare of a child we see in the stores who is totally out of control.
This works with my girl and because of my FIRMNESS when handling her, she is more confident and respectful.
My husband is a push over and STAR more often runs from him rather than come to him as she does me, every time.
She knows I won't put up with her foolishness but also I won't hurt her.
Listen to Dennis, he knows what he is talking about, He has a STALLION.
Mares are just as bad, trust me. A gelding should be much easier for you, be firm!
Ronda

Hi Dennis,
I just watched your video, WELL DONE. They are beautiful and the preformance was great!!!!
Ronda

I would like to add another aspect: motivation. Recently I worked with a horse that I know already a couple of years. Then I had no time for him for some months, in the meantime he was carrying beginners and children and the owner told be that he can hardly be moved. I took him in the roundpen and did the things I know he likes to do. I could hardly stop him from galopping. Mounting him afterwards was a pleasure, he did everything I requested without hesitating. I think he was simply bored. In the horse we are discussing Candi could try to find out what the horse likes to do. Maybe it works after a short walk...
Rudi

Hi everybody

I just wanted to expand on somethings.
I believe that the main idea of getting your horse to move is to use horse body language. When you misbehave the leader will send you away for a certain amount of time, having a harsher body language and using the eyes a specific way.
You also show your horse you are not a predator because you go to him, stroke him and go away again without eating him.
Dennis, I understand that you probabely don't mean the word 'fear' in such a negative way. Every word has a connotation, non the less. Respect and fear are two very different things. Maybe if someone not so experienced reads it, or having many but other experiences, they might think 'see, it's not that bad'.
I know you have to be clear with horses. Or in life as a whole, that's the goal. The more experienced one gets, the more relaxed one is with his or her own actions, clear, or firm if you will, in a gentle way.
I grew up between horses and handeled all kinds, from mare to stallion. And geldings. Young and old. Calm and nervous ones.
I can only write that fear, and I don't mean asking attention, has never helped. We all have had our bad moments and our good and I'm sure we all make up our minds about results and the satisfaction and what not.
Once again, I understand you don't mean fear, but then why use the word?
In this also, it is better to be clear.
With kind regards

Phyllis

Phyllis
Pleas don't lecture me about my languaging. When you approach a horse as a predator as Monty does in the round pen, you are working off the horses fear of being eaten. f you don't understand how use that tool you can indeed make a horse stay away from you all the time. That was not the problem that was being addressed. It was how do you get the horse to move when it refuses.
So if you have indeed done any join ups with a difficult reluctant horse you would understand exactly what was meant by afraid.

Cheers

Dear Dennis
I stand by my opinion that fear, nor pain, in whatever amount, should ever enter the equation. I have never had a reluctant horse needing to be scared of me, I do seek it's respect and the more difficult ones make it so that I have to sharpen my abilities, whit and creativity to get them going with the right motivation. Without fear.
I respect you seeing it differently.
With kind regards
Phyllis

P.s. : You probably mean 'please' :)

I just finished watching the DVD's by Martin Clunes and in there it tells us why horses run in races or run at all.
It is caused by FEAR.
Horses REACT to anything out of fear, always!!!!
Do you honestly believe you can make a horse run in a round pen with a smile on your face and say, "that's a good boy, now off with you."
Is that what Monty is doing or is he waving his arms, slaping the rope on his legs or throwing a rope at the back end of the horse, Phillis, get real.
What do you honestly think the horse is feeling when this is being done, ah.
And we are not here for a grammar lesson, that was rude!!!
Ronda Bergeron

Dear Ronda
It is never my intention to be rude and I don't find that anyone expressing themself calmly can be percieved as rude. This is a personal opinion and ofcourse that varies from person to person. A forum is a place where everybody can express their opinion.
When I work with horses I do that in a calm and fun way. Not bullying and not being a pushover. It's a delicate balance. You may think I walk around smiling like a nun with a concussion, if it is your choise to polarise, that's fine by me.
My name is spelled 'Phyllis'.
I can assure you madam, I am very real.
I respect other opinions, I respect other people expressing them. And I respect myself in the same manner.
There is a sublte, yet important, difference between a horse being startled, if necessary, by something you do or by your person. I believe that the goal in handeling and riding a horse is cooperation, making it nice for the two parties. I also believe that this is widespred believe and goal, also in this particular way of handeling horses.
With kind regards
Phyllis

Hi
I just wanted to add to my last comment to make it complete.
When the horse is starled by something you do, and/or the object you use.
For example tying plastic bags to a stick or whip because the horse can use an extra insentive. I have found that the horses who need some extra help in making yourself clear, are most of the time horses who haven't been handeled correct. In that case the most important part is giving, especailly to one who seeks help, a lot of good advice and support about how horses are as animals. At least as important is explaining how humans are and in every particular case , pointing out to the person what it is they need to work on. It's a bit unfair putting it all on the horses plate.
You can startel a horse as much as you want, if your body is placed wrong, for example too much in front, according to the horse, you will only make things worse. And have more work to get were you want to go as a team.
Handeling horses is a sublte, complex thing. If we want to do it right, we will have to act, think and take our responsability accordingly. We have to dare and learn to take it beyond ourselfs. It's is an attitude that serves well in all aspects of life.
With kind regards
Phyllis

Dear all
It will be very difficult to find a clear definition of respect and fear. Is respect possible without a certain amount of fear? For the horse as a flight animal a certain amount of fear is something physiological. Speaking in heart frequency: 100/minute could be called agitation, 200/min is fear. One common opinion could be: we want to educate horses without causing physical pain and excessive fear.
By the way: I like this open discussion.

Phyllis,
What I find rude is your commenting on our grammar.
A lot of us, English, is not the first language.
And if one is critized all the time they may feel reluctanat to comment at all.
YOU are not our grammacial teacher nor our mothers, so please stop.
It is not becoming to a lady.
What started out as a call for help for a non-moving animal has turned into a circus, come on!!!
With no kind regards, (that is earned from me).
Ronda

Dear Ronda, dear all
Personally I like to learn more, also about grammar.
English is not my maternal language.
Getting someone's name wright is common courtesy in many cultures. Especailly when you try to scold someone. You have to at least properly know who you are addressing yourself to.
Being a lady is being, in whatever we do, respectfull, honest, goodhearted and true. To err is human, that is no different for me. I can say that I try to be a lady -or just a basic, nice, decent, open human being, what's in a name, ey?- in everything I do, at every ticking second.
The circus is coming along allright, but where that started or if it is such a bad thing, I don't know.
All I know is that I gave my opion, just like everybody else on this forum. Or on fora all around the globe. I like talking and sharing, it's what keeps the world moving. And with a bit of luck in the right direction.
With sincere kind regards, because I'm lady.
Phyllis

STOP!!!!!!!!!
This is about horses and not about us. Ronda thank you for your comments and Phyllis please don't continue this line it is not helping!

Cheers to all

Hi all,

I am just back from my holiday and try to read all the questions and answers I missed in the last weeks.
I read them because I want to learn and be also a little bit helpfull where I can as a beginner.
BUT.... I am FED UP with all the arguments about how we are writing things. I thought; there we go again... and it has to be stopped.
I am Dutch, for the once who don't know, and I am making progress on my English, by reading English as well. I understand exactly what everyone is saying/writing.
So thank you Candi for the question and thank you Ronda, Dennis, Rudi and Gen for taking the time and answers/explainations, it helped me.
The only thing what I am wondering now WHERE IS CANDI????
I don't see any reaction from her on your good responces?
Is she afraid of us now???? ha...
Can't we stay to the question and the answers and if you are not agreeing on that, ask first if you are realy understanding it right ?!?!?!?! That's why I put the question on the forum Question and Video the other day.
That's the only thing I wanted to say and I will not react on any silly wordgames at all. Otherwise I am going to start in Dutch..ha...
Fijne dag allemaal.... Have a nice day everyone, May.

Yesterday I worked with another horse that would not move. When he stopped I went to him, backed him up and sent him away again. He learned very quickly and did not stop any more.

Right on, May.

Yeah you hit the nail on the head with that last comment May :)

not to be rude Phyllis but its a good thing that you understand grammar because you clearly dont understand that there is an element of fear in join up. For join up you must start by being PREDATORIAL because that is how you get the flight response. If the horse didnt fear you at the beggining then you wouldnt get the flight which then leads on into the join up and the follow up:) I hope this is helpful and doesnt come across too rude or negative.
Equi

So many wonderful languages and intelligent people, its a harsh enough world at the moment without falling out with each other.
We are in this uni to help ourselves become better people in our dealing with horses, arent we?
So why dont we do that. Not everybody will agree with the advice given sometimes, and thats ok,and grammer from across the oceans is a challenge, but lets all remember the horses and forget the angst caused by words in one language that seem maybe too harsh, descriptively, in another.
I was heartbroken when I took a scared, terrified of humans, because of abuse and neglect, colt into the paddock to do join-up. I thought that I could ruin him for ever, because I had to send him away from me, to start.
20 minutes later that beautiful boy rested his head on my shoulder from behind and I knew my worries were unfounded. Every horse is different, you all know that.
Lets support and advise each other, without falling out. Please.
Sandie

Good idea Sandie, Well put :)
Equi

The Appy needs to respect you period. Eyes on eyes, square shoulders and ask him to go away. Not a little a lot.

Goodness, this discussion certainly evolved into something I have never seen on the forum. I love all the things I learn fom everyone who takes the time and the cares enough to help with a problem some other owner or rider is having. I have heard some stories of illness and injuries and heart breaking loss about the members who offer their help based on their experiences. I hope to never lose track of any of you. Horses are the universal language ! I am not talented enough to speak more than one language, writing in another language is completely off the chain to me . Brava and Bravo to all of you for listening .

Mssmith, let's turn to the horse behaviour. "Not a little, a lot". That is what Monty is telling us how to send away for the initial Join-Up. I think in a later stage of training they should go away calm. If you start with the maximum stimulus initially in those horses that would not move you loose the possibility of augmenting the pressure. I personally accept at the beginning that they just move, requiring more in the following lessons.
Rudi

Hey I have a Appaloosa filly, she was also hard to Join up with but we did after 20mins ish! You just have to keep at it and it will happen! Mine just wanted to see how much she could push me about by standing and kicking at me and running at me but always stand your ground! Now where ever I go she goes! We have a great bond and I have only had her 4months ish! Good luck xx

Good way to get yourself killed. You will never win against a horse charging at you.

Just a comment. Most horses, and I say MOST, will not run over you if you stand still, but sometimes they will. Most of them will just stop or veer around you. But NEVER run from a horse, they WILL chase you. And THAT can be trouble. Many years ago I had a nearly 2 year old Appy stud colt, and my neice, 6 years old, came to visit, and got into the corral when nobody was looking, he was curious and headed toward her, he was rather big and she wasnt, and she started to run, screaming. He trotted after her. I saw what was going on, couldnt get there fast enough to do anything so yelled at her to STOP and stand still. She obeyed, and he stopped too. I went in and introduced them, and told her NOT to go in without me again. She didnt. I am not arguing with you, Dennis,far from it, just making an observation from my own experiences. I have also had to jump out of the way of a charging horse- once.