HI Miriam,

The Science Trials papers were finally published officially in Nov 2011 and now we are editing footage. Yay!

(This is the answer from Debbie Loucks, Monty's daughter at the support desk, I hope you don't mind Debbie, my putting it in as a comment!)

That's excellent news. I have been wondering about these too. Thanks for asking the question Miriam :-)

hi all now im just considering buying montys snaffle bit im introducing the bit to oscar im wondering what size is best he is a young horse still growing at this stage he is about 14h last time i introduced a rubber bit to another young horse that seemed fine wondering what you think on this have just been watching introducing bit to abigail wich has been a real learning curve thanks for your advise julie/unicorn

Julie
Are you going to be using the bit and bridle with your horse? I ma not sure why you want to introduce the bit to a young horse unless he is old enough to ride. I am very traditional in my training of young horse. It may take longer but they turn out better. I always start with the halter then when they are old enough to begin the training for the saddle, i go to a hackamore/bosal. This technique will give the horse the headset you need to be able to effectively use a bit. A snaffle can be introduced while the horse is still using the hackamore but just let the bit hang in the mouth without reins so they get us to having it in their mouth,

So if you are going to start with a snaffle the bit needs to be just wide enough so it don't pinch the side of the mouth and just tight enough to cause two small wrinkles at the side of the mouth, like a small smile. By the way Abigail was a mature horse not a youngster so maybe using honey or molasses the first couple of times the horse is given the bit would be good, but the horse should be comfortable enough the they take the bit themselves and not tricked into taking it. A good bridle horse will reach for the bit when presented. That should be your first goal long before the bit is used to guide the horse. Leaving the bit in for an extended period of time without reins will help you with this. The bit becomes familiar to the horse.
Cheers

hi dennis thanks for the advise oscar already uses a halter and we have been doing the work with the dually .Oscar is one year old waler /th he is 14 hands already he is going to be a big boy i have had oscar scince he was 6mths old . I have been unsure at what ages and stages to start him at and what is the rules ! or are there any .i dont come from a horsey back ground full of all the horse peoples language i come from a 13 year old who was blessed enough to have two ponys to find daily solace in i broke a little arab cross filly in didnt know what i was doing but i rode her loved her until i lost her in a car accident.then for 28 years i promised my self i wouldnt get another horse untill i could car for it in the right way and now there is oscar one of the things im rediscovering is that silence where i just be and do with my horse today before reading your feedback i went and took my bridel without reins a bit and honey and we just played he took the bit chewed it kept it in then i allowed him to drop it we did this several times we then put the bridal on fully without reins and he just took it he chews it but to me it all felt good. Honestly dont have the language or the training But i have the passion the love to find the way and building that daily connection to oscar is why i keep searching for loving ways to move forward his very forgiving of my clumsy hands and finding montys online uni has been a blessing that helps us move forward in as monty would say our parnership cheers to you julie/unicorn

Julie
That is great you are doing exactly what should be done. When the bridle is on make sure that there are two small wrinkles at the side of the mouth. That is the gauge that keeps the bit high enough in the mouth so it doesn't bang on the front teeth. If there is copper on the bit so much the better. You are starting a little early with the bit but that is ok, just don't use reins with it or use it to long line for now. Oscars mouth will be changing significantly in the next couple of years. So by the time he is three you should be good to go with the bit and saddle. I don't know too much about walers other than they are a very sturdy breed and have a remarkable history. If your horse is receptive you could start getting him use to having a saddle on his back. As young as he is I would start with a bareback pad which cinches around the horse similar to a real saddle. Should he blow up with this "saddle" on he can't hurt himself particularly if he rolls on it.
Good luck and it sounds like you found your self a good horse and at the horse found a good owner.
Cheers

thanks Dennis walers are an amazing breed and i certainly have found a special friend he is very receptive he has had a light saddle and saddle cloth he seems to take to most things i think introducing new things slowely geting him to sniff and see what im doing using montys ways is helping to create an already wonderfull horse For myself i continue to learn and one day would love to com to flag is up farm and do a course or two .Thanks for your wisdom julie/unicorn

Hi Unicorn, i am just wondering where abouts in the world are you situated?? Curious because you have a waler cross. I am in Australia and this is where walers are from so maybe you are in Aus? It is my understanding that Walers are a slow maturing breed, so they grow till they are 5 ish, TB's on the other hand are fast maturing so they say. I would def follow dennis' advice on waiting a while to saddle start this youngster. You have plenty of time to put in all that important ground work so that when the time comes to saddle up you both will be ready. I am in the same position with my brumby gelding. He is only just 2 so i have another year before i will be getting on him. I am in the process of setting up a few obstacles for training sessions with my boy to keep his mind active. That is another thing with the waler...they are extremely inteligent so don't let him get bored! It sounds like you are doing a great job with him already :-) Keep up the good work and best of luck with it all....look forward to hearing more :-)
Janelle

Dennis what a joy you are. You are so positive and kind to the new kids and us old kids as well. You help so much. Thank you for your insight. Monty s very proud of you!!!!!7

Hi Janelle thanks for your insight i am in Aus in Wa in fact . my ideas of showing oscar these things is more that they become a natural part of his world and not some scary monster.I agree about not leting him get bored and he seems to love trying new things and we both have lots to learn so all advice is welcome .julie/unicorn

You are a long way from me then! I am in Tassie :-) My Brumby is the same with new things! very curious. He is 9 months out of the wild and has taken to domestic life really well.
Looking forward to hearing more of your journey :-)
Janelle

Hi janelle is that your brumby in the pick our horses look similiar , they are amazing animals and to have come from the wild to be domesticated what a journey you guys are having lovely to meet you and i and oscar look forward to shaeing our journeys with you what is your brunbys name julie

Hi Julie, Yes this is my Brumby in the picture. This was the first time i met him at the Victorian Brumby Association last september so he is in wooly winter clothes! Our two do look similar dont they! ours both have crooked blazes! We are having a great journey and he is showing himself to be a very calm, sensible, trusting boy. His name is Buster by the way :-) Is your boy from a breeder? How tall do you expect him to mature? I am thinking buster will get to 14.3 maybe. He is only 2 so he has about 3 years of growing to do and i would say he is at 13.2 now but i haven't measured him properly...just guessing!
Happy horsing!
Janelle

hey janelle oscar is around 13 hands probably a bit taller he has just shout out and up his not yet one this mth is his bday so his going to be a big boy .I got oscar from a lady i did stable work with who has a waler stallion she breeds from he dosent come with papers though but i did a full history check his dad comes from clayton station in oz check out their site and you can see oscars grandad clayton spirit oscars mum is a tb 16 3 h . buster sounds like alovely boy happy horsing right back at you julie

Hi ;-) wow your boy is going to be a biggun'! Lets hope he gets the Tb agility and the waler temperament! Walers are a solid breed from what i know and can be pretty big too depending on what their origin was, am i right? I will def check out that website! As a brumby owner now i am really interested in our heritage horse breeding. I know brumbies are not walers but their place in our history is just as fascinating i think. I went on a brumby tour in the snowy mtns a few years back where they had recently come across a mob of horses that they were in the process of testing for waler bloodlines, as far as i know they turned out to be so. It is all a pretty romantic and remarkable story hey :-)
Janelle
I'll change my profile pic to a recent summer coat pic of buster for you :-)

Janelle
Brumby's as the same as the mustang in that they are 'feral' horses. The mustang are originally of spanish blood since those were the first horses turned loose and for a long time they were isolated from other breeds As more and more different horses became feral you would find all different bloodlines. At our clubs Mustang Days were the government brings in 30 to 40 mustangs and burros for adoption, you will see all sorts of horses. Some look like TB others appaloosa. There are a couple of mustang that has retained a pure bloodline and and is the Kiger Mustang and the Spanish mustang. They both have their own breed registration as well. So in sort there is no reason that Buster could not be a Waler. Ether way you have a horse that you are going to enjoy and learn from and that is the most important part of having a horse.
Cheers

Several years ago I adopted 3 mustang mares from the same herd in Nevada,one looked like a Tb,one like a quarterhorse, and one looked like a small draft horse. Everyone kept asking me what breed she was because of her big feet and heavy bones. There was an 11 year old stallion there that looked just like a Belgian. Someone had turned 3 Belgian stallions loose to improve the size of the mustangs, from what I heard.

Dennis you are right in saying that brumbies are feral. Unfortunately our government thinks they should be completely erradicated from our national parks altogether. Their numbers do need controlling but to have no brumbies here would be a real shame. Thanks to the work of the association where i got buster from they may have a decent future! Ours have to have a certificate of authenticity when to qualify for registration with the Aus Brumby Horse Register, so at least they are being recognised as a breed if they are born or conceived in the wild. Different areas of Australia have different types of brumbies, like your mustangs. In Western Australia they have BIG horses of percheron and Tb decent and in one area up north there has been a disovery of a decent which is from old arab lines and is most likely one of the purest arab lines in aus! I think it is fascinating! I am very pleased to have my little boy and i am looking forward to many years of fun with him, and as you say i will be learning a LOT from him!
Janelle

Hi Pantommustang, it is pretty cool what traits nature chooses to select isn't it! My boy has good bones, big feet, long flowing mane and tail, all like his clydesdale heritage yet he has pointy arab ears! I have had a few people comment on his ears!
Janelle

its so interesting tracing back through the history and bloodlines they are also talking about culling again up in the snowey mountains as the brumbys are supoosedly causing damage its a sad thing not sure if there is ever just the one answer there are many great people doing good things to help. i was reading about the waler the other day and how they had tryed cross breeding with arabs to get speed it had caused a few issues so they stoped .funny how we have to mess about with things trying to get that perfect jumper racer ,stamina! there is also clydes dale in waler history thats where the feathring comes in and that solid body there history is a little sad for when they were used in the war but so interestin.Oscar and i went out yesterday for a long walk i was steping hhim over small logs he did such a beatyful jump at one stage i hop its a sighn of whats to come . loving my dually halter it just works julie /unicorn

It is interesting what you say about the crossing with arab thing because the place where i got my boy from recently came upon a stallion in one of the trapped mobs who was breathtaking. Someone told the caretaker she should keep him entire and breed yet it was apparent that even though he was of breeding age he had not sired any foals. She said no to the breeding because nature knows best....the mares had a reason why they would not breed with him, no one will ever know what that was.
Sounds like you had a nice stroll with your boy :-) The Dually is a great thing hey! I always feel a great deal safer when i use mine, and yep they just work!
Janelle

hi had a lovely day oscar is happily leading over logs walking along well, we are still practicing going back he tends to be moody with this one his not going back happily i have to use the dually we ended on a couple of nice back ups but they are only a few steps. After that we spent a lovely day grooming picking up feet his coat is now glowing and have to say his main and tail look fab. happy horsing

Janelle and Julie
your comments about messing with something you wither don't understand or your reasons are poor is so true. People don't bother trying to learn as much as they can about genetics and cross breeding. An example is the quarter horse. A good ranch/working quarter horse needs to be muscular/stocky between 14.3 hands and 16 hands. Were are seeing quarter hours that are 17+ hand and look my like a draft horse. They are training them to canter at a very slow pace and walk with their nose in the dirt. It is really ugly!
You are right about not breeding that stallion because he looks good. When breeders take a champion stallion and breed him, the expectation is that he will throw good babies. Quite often it doesn't happen but they keep breeding him anyway
That is my rant for the day!!
Cheers

Hi Dennis,
You are right to have a rant! I have not seen the quarterhorse thing nut i trust you know what you are talking about there. I think it is terrible to mess with these breeds like they are. Here in Aus, i am in Tasmania, a little island below the mainland of Aus and we have some arab breeders here who are breeding horses for endurance. It is my understanding that an arab should be 15h ish or smaller according to all my horse breed manuals. These breeders are producing horses of 16hh heights and they are built like a quarterhorse! It looks very UN Arabian to me! Whats worse is that they are registered breeders and getting big money for these so called pure bred horses. I think if breeders want to do the right thing they need to stop the overbreeding horse farming that is happening all over the world.
I'll add one more bit of trivia... people get really upset at the number of brumbies which go the slaughter house here in Aus but according to the people who run the slaughter houses, they get far more domestic horses being slaughtered than brumbies. I cannot remember the exact numbers but it was a big difference. Makes me wonder how many over farmed Arabs and Thouroughbres end up in these places once they have 'served their purpose'?
I don't mind having a bit of a rant too Dennis lol!
Janelle
And sorry to Miriam for stealing her post for a completely unrelated conversation!

Hi Janelle,
Don't care about my post, I learned a lot and the message got through anyway!
It is so great to be in contact with horsepeople from all over the world, learn from eachother and get to know about other country's specific situations.
Keep doing the good thing and us posted!
Miriam