Hi all, I have just had a look at this link very carefully and I am no expert but it seems to me that it is being used here to force aimals to cooperate. Surely the whole point of Mr Robert's teaching is that we should try to get our horses to want to do the things that we ask of them because they want to, not to force them to do things against their own will. Freedom of choice.

I am not entirely sure that the product itself is wrong, but I am sure that how it is being used is wrong. Just as a whip it not in itself cruel, it is how it is used that can make it cruel. Perhaps people with more knowledge than me will be able to say whether or not this restraint is causing pain or not, but if it is (and I think it is), then the horses seem to be saying that they would rather endure other pain more than this, suggesting perhaps that it is very painful indeed. But what I am sure about is that I don't like this idea at all.

I hope this makes sense to you!

Take care, Newt

Hi, the restraint is used similar to a twitch. Pain to release endorphins.
Have a look at the video that's on that webpage as he sets it up on the mare. http://youtu.be/or-jpYGvM5k

I'd pick the video to pieces, you'll notice the mare continually shaking her head as the woman gave no release of pressure. Even when they had the device on the mare she started head nodding again, so they applied more pressure. Poor thing.

Remember horses learn from release of pressure and we reward them with that release the instant they respond.
You're are correct Abi, restraining methods are not required. The dually and other natural head collars are quite enough along with patience and understanding of your horse.

Mel
x

Hi. This sort of thing is not acceptable! It is on a par with tying a horse down, like Montys Dad used to do. There is no let up of pressure, no reward. All a horse would learn from this is how to fight. This WOULD produce a very dangerous animal. What might appear at first glance to be acceptance is this poor creature making the best of a horrid situation. What it will learn, for certain, is that nothing on two legs is going to be good news & every human being is to be avoided. I would love to see this horse turned loose in a 5 acre field & then this ignorant person try & catch it, without any help. My guess would be - no chance.

I was always taught to go to the front of a horse & avoid going behind it. I do nothing of the sort with my 5! The baby filly was cuddled over her hips - can't do that too well now as I can no longer reach her belly that way to scratch her ( too big) ! The back end can be painful but I realised, after some contemplation, that they kill from the front end, bashing their attackers with their front legs, rearing on them. Please do not dwell on that thought. I raise it only to emphasise how wrong thinking has been prevalent for so long. These are gentle creatures who would rather be our friends than our food. They could cause great trouble ( & the troubled ones do ) but it is us who cause them to turn to violence. It is only the really oppressed ones that take that route, and then when we give them little option. We need to be so very little understanding to gain their trust, loyalty & love. Hopefully, those who continue to design, produce & market such proactively aggressive kit will eventually get the message but until that happens those of us who believe this to be wrong must stand shoulder to shoulder to show them there is a choice & there is a better way. Cheers, Jo

I saw a devise like this years ago and I don't think it is painful. I think they are correct that it works on an acupressure point. It may well be mildly uncomfortable but if it were really painful the horse would fight it and might even throw herself over backwards. I would say don't use it if you have an alternative, but if you don't have a safe alternative - use it. In my experience, it's harmless. Just don't let it become a substitute for proper training.

Ok. Doesn't look that way but if you've got experience I bow to your more informed knowledge. Suffice to say, no one better try & put one of these on me! Or any of mine for that matter!!

I ride using what is known in Britain as an ' in hand ' bit. A plastic straight mouthpiece with brass bit rings. It's intended to show babies from the ground. I have been told more than once that I cannot ride using this bit as brass is a soft metal. Each time this point has been made I respond that if I need to pull the reins hard enough to bend even a soft metal then I am not doing it right. Yanking on the reins is not an option. Almost every human has a dentist horror story. It should not be ok for us to create something similar for our horses. Don't be fooled, I am happy for horses to have a bit I their mouth. I just have issues with the way these bits are then put to use. Monty used to demonstrate seriously extreme riding with light fishing line connecting the reins to the bit, I think about 5lb breaking strain. We should aspire to less pressure to the mouth. I am still competitive but I find the attitude of " the up & coming " disturbing as they seem to believe that success is the be all & end all. What is so wrong with having a great day out & if successful that's a bonus? Cheers, Jo

Enjoyed both comments Jo. Certainly would not be using this on my horses.

my initial reaction to seeing that man put that thing on that poor mare is what an absolute bastard!!!!! I don't care who finds that offensive, I found the video offensive!!!
Any horse would react if you shoved trimmers in it's ear & started it up!!! Same with shoving it into the nostril where it's very sensitive indeed!!! Plus your should NEVER trim the inside of their ears, the hair is there to stop insects & dirt falling inside the ear!
As for the restraint; to suggest you should be galloping or lunging a horse with that on is just monstrous.
ENDORPHINS: they are released in response to pain exactly the same as using a twitch.
With correct, patient training, this awful thing would never be necessary.
The ONLY time it may be useful is for vets do do a procedure that isn't tolerated by the horse, but it is needed for it's own good - that does not mean for any reason such as taking blood & routine treatment - once again, correct sympathetic handling is what should be employed!
The Dually is humane - that thing is not needed.
I think you can see that video mad me pretty mad!!!

Hi Beryl. Have you remembered to breath again yet? Passion is a wonderful attribute. About 20 years ago there were attacks on horses in the south of England, in sufficient numbers that it made the national news. It was horrible but fortunately short lived. One of my work colleagues asked me what I would do if I caught someone abusing my horses. I replied I would restrain them & call the police. They commented that they had expected a more angry response, to which I said I had not specified how I would restrain them. Tying them to the front bumper of my 1971 land rover & yelling ' run '. When I had run them over multiple times, rendering them permanently insensible from the neck down, then I would hand them over to the Police. In hindsight & as I still have the same land rover, even though I have different horses, I would strongly suggest that visitors bring carrots not weapons. Cheers, Jo.

Mitchellphotog - I was about to say that I think you will find this device causes a lot of pain as it is based on a ratchet/pulley/restraint system but I suspect you can see that from the reaction of others :-)
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Just to pick up on the point you mention that if it was harmless the horse would react. This is not true - quite the contrary. The horse realises that if it moves the pain will be intolerable so the device works by aversion and avoidance. Long term aversion and avoidance leads to animals shutting down and becoming robotic at the very least, and at the worst they get to a point where they can't stand it anymore and explode. Think of it like living in an abusive human relationship - the threat of pain and violence is enough to keep someone "under control"; some will live with it with it for years and years, some one day explode and commit murder.
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Beryl's point about endorphins is so right - I get very tired of people trotting out the endorphins arguement - forgetting the bit that you have to create the pain in order to release the endorphins!

Beryl, you have such a wonderful way with words :D We could really do with the like button :D
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mitchell half way through that video the guy who developed the device spoke of the immense pain it causes the horse so it releases the endorphins, making it go into the sedated like state.
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I'd like to see one put on the designers, then see if they think it's right.
. x

not been on for a few days - getting hay in hurrah!!
Mel, you've no idea how restrained i was haa haa haa!!
JoHewittVINTA, i know a lot more about those attacks than most as the first one was less that 1/2 a mile away, just up the top of the lane to where my babies lived out in their tiny paddock!!!!!
I will NOT go into details as there are such sick people around, it might start up again.
I was working nights at the time & going up there about 10.30 in the dark to move them to a different paddock then straight after work in the morning; we had the RSPCA sitting in a van camped out at night - I won't tell you what i went up there armed with!!!
It was a terrible time!

Yeah, that's a really stressful situation. Have had times like that too, for various reasons. A friend of mine had a pony stolen & was convinced that, even though she contacted the local police, the only chance she had of getting the mare back was to track her down herself. She checked to see where horse sales were being held that day. Turned out there was only one, on the south coast. The pony had been taken from Scotland. My friend called the police where the sale was being held & very luckily spoke to a WPC who was very understanding. The mare had ermine markings on her fetlocks & so was distinctive. The WPC found the mare with a sticker on her rump - 13! Had my friend delayed at all she would never have seen her pony again. That was before the days of horse passports but even now there are too few regular checks made. Chances are it would only be identified if being slaughtered or exported.

Thats the ultimate fear isn't it! My riding mare is freeze marked, the companion is micro-chipped, my old boy I had freeze marked when it first came out.
I'm so glad your friend found her pony, there would be NOTHING worse than not knowing what had happened to them, other things you can come to terms with, but that is a terrible thing to go through.
The police are useless for that, you need to contact all the welfare organisations etc.