Hi Rudi,
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I am not a big fan of Parelli's methods, but I think it is right, it would be really interesting to compare the methods of Parelly and Monty. Maybe it would also be possible to invite Mark Rashid, too?
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Best wishes from Hamburg, Germany,
Jasmin

Hi Rudi

As well as working with horses I am a dog trainer. I am a little sad to see Pat aligning himself with Caesar Milan. I don't want to start a whole "Caesar debate" here and I know he has many followers and is a good guy on the whole, but his methods are 'old school' and not up to date, and at times are downright unsafe and unfair to the dog: for better dog training methods see Victoria Stilwell, Dr Ian Dunbar, Jan Fennell, and such like. Regarding Pat Parelli and his methods, I think it's important to study all methods (even "unsuitable" ones) because we cannot make an informed choice or put up a reasoned sensible argument for choosing/not choosing a method if we do no not know what else is there. I have sat through many hours of excrutiating training methods (horses and dogs) in order to understand the different mentalities (though I confess many leave me speechless for their justification of brutality or sheer stupidity!). For example, I use a Dually for most things and I don't like the rope halters for training, however, I do love them for well trained horses for their lightness and convenience. I also have used one to desensitise a horse who was extremely nervous/headshy of "clanking" headcollars. I think the "split" of the "natural horsemanship" community regarding Pat and Monty is reminiscent of Freud and Jung (you are either one way or another) and is not always helpful. Monty and Pat could do a lot of good in the horseworld by publicly agreeing to differ where they do, but, as you suggest, finding common ground and demonstrating their respect for each others knowledge and ability. This would go a long way towards prevent the "Monty v Parelli" thing getting any worse. I will be interested to see what others think. I would also be curious to know how well (or if) Monty and Pat know each other/discuss things too.

Well said, viccihh1!
I am all for looking at he world with open eyes and make informed choices.
I am also for being eclectic and not to "throw the baby out with the bath-water", as we say here, by discarding everything in a method and thereby miss out on the good points that does exist.
I do know that being eclectic and open was what brought me to Monty and his methods. :)
Would love to see Pat Parelli and Monty Roberts discuss and compare.

Wouldn't it be great to get them both in a room for a discussion and be a fly on the wall? Personally, I prefer Monty's methods simply because I find his style easy to understand, non gimmicky and it makes sense. For me, the Parelli style is a bit too much like showmanship, but that is just my own personal view, if others find it works for them then who am I to say which method is better or worse? BUT what is important to remember is that they both have the same end goal, to eliminate cruel training methods and to work in partnership with the horse, which is no bad thing. I've said this before on the forum, but wouldn't it be great if there was some kind of umbrella organisation for people like Monty and Pat and Mark Rashid who advocate non-violent training methods? The combined power in the horse world would be huge, and like Viccih1 says, finding the common ground with all of these methods is I think the key.

viccihh1, I agree about Caesar, and I prefer Monty's methods over Parelli's.

Couldn't have said it better viccihh1

Thank you so much for your comments!
Rudi

I much prefer Monty's methods to Parelli's. There are a few Parelli followers at my stable, and I have routinely seen them hit their horses with their "carrot sticks", often times violently. I have alos watched the video of Pat hobbling and twitching a horse named Catwalk, which was very abusive and hard to watch.
I think while there are some similarities, Monty is more to the point, and not flashy and showy (ie, Parelli riding bridleless, doing cool tricks, etc), and he works to acheive complete partnership with the horse, rather than one based on treats and "sticks"

Just wanted to say that if they get abusive with the carrot sticks, they have misunderstood the concept of them, completely. Very sad to hear that.

Kicki I agree the carrot stick is not a painful tool if used right. I follow a lot of trainers on tv and the stupidity of some owners astounds me therefore anyone out there Monty, Pat Parelli, Ceaser, Victoria and now Jackson for cats that helps the owner understand how to deal and respect the animals they have without violence is brilliant in my book. I respect all these people and the gift they can give to pets and their owners.

Thank you all for so much info. Parrelli makes my hair stand up and I don't even know why. I'm sure he has some good info. Monty is more my style. As for Cesar...doesn't work for my dogs, thanks for a new person to look into. I'm so enjoying these threads!

I have tried Pat's methods before and had a few lessons. i think Parelli left me with more questions that answers - "what is natural about bouncing a ball on my horses back?" "where is the release from pressure?" "how is allowing my horse to make the mistake and then repremanding him afterwards a good thing?" etc etc. my horse still drags me for grass which picks away at my confidence a little more each time.
i felt a lot of it was for show and monetary gain (showmanship)and didn't deal with my behaviour or confidence around my horse. i also felt that some of it was a touch too harsh for my liking as i wasn't allowed to rest even if both myself and my horse were worried by what was happening even if he had tried his best.
now i am new to Intelligent horsemanship but have watched Monty's tv programmes and have already tried and achieved a lot. but i do feel that this way will be more beneficial to me.
i am not knocking anything as i believe everyone is entitled to believe in what they want and to do what they want. i know Pats methods are not for me. i feel it is too violent at times and hard to swallow.
having tried to ask my horse to not crowd me for so long with varying success, i tried Monty's method last night and gained success very easily without upsetting me or my horse.

there, that is what i think, hope i have not missed the point. in my view, i prefer Monty. but it is down to interpretation i guess.

I have one very major and HUGE problem with his method. He believes in using very excessive force (in my opinion) when he feels justified/required. Just you tube "Parelli 2010 Festival of the Horse".

I will not subscribe to anyone's teaching methods, no matter how "gentle" they purport to be, if they use this kind of abuse, and that's what it is abuse, plain and simple. Twitching the horse for no reason whatsoever, other than to force submission using pain and then trying to hobble him?...at least thats the only conclusion that I could draw from him trying to "hogtie" the poor guy. My experienced opinion is that he was intimidated and afraid of this horse, being a stallion that was just a little difficult to handle.

I have had quite a few experiences, with some very dangerous horses, one that was actually hell bent on trying to kill any one that tried to come near her, so I do have some experience handling some dangerous ones.

Well, thats my two cents....sorry if I sound a tad agitated.

one other thing i was asked with Parelli methods was "why do i do all his jobs? is it not more important to spend more time playing with your horse?" i was quite bemused by this as i have always felt that providing for his needs myself is the most essential part of horse ownership. plus how can anyone expect to have a good partnership outside the stable when you don't have that in the the stable?? and the safety aspect that i always put my hard hat on and they were almost discouraging this practice!!

i saw the video you spoke about pmpleau and i was shocked by it. i was told that we didnt know the whole story, but surely nothing can justify the behaviour on the humans part??!!!! you are right to sound agitated. i like many others want a partnership without fear and aggression.

it's nice to hear others opinions and i am glad i have found like minded people here!!

I haven't seen the video, and followed Parelli and all the other natural trainers for the last few years, I haven't used a twitch even when my vet told me too, I always put the relationship first, but Craig Cameron says that hobbles can be a good training tool for getting a horse to stand still, to use if he ever gets caught in a fence. I haven't used them though.

Thanks for your opinion. Different schools - different ways. I don't know what is right and wrong, but we should remain open minded. Again one of Monty's principles is useful: it is not the tool that is important but the hand using it...
Rudi

I just stumbled across this YouTube video of Pat Parelli. If you listen to what he is saying, there are a lot of similarities between him and Monty. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEm5tQcSiRY&NR=1&feature=endscreen

Personally I find Monty much easier to understand and apply his training ideology. I have one of Parelli's books and I found it great, but very verbose in the way he explains himself. If the opportunity came up for me to go to a Parelli clinic, I'd do it. I think he has a lot to offer.

....apart from whacking with a whip...which I don't get AT ALL! (obviously)

Hi All. I have seen both schools in action to a point. My friend did some parelli work on my 2 yr old who was quite difficult and I think it did help him. It also focuses a lot on achieving lightness with commands which I really like. One can adopt these parts combined with Montys methods though, just taking the best bits. For example you see it in the Charlotte Bridhall Video with her horse West Point where she explains when she wants her horses to transition down to trot she just thinks it and the horse responds. I feel Montys methods are kept smart and simple, always put the needs of the horse first and never use excessive force, or force at all. It always leave room for the horse to have choice. On top of this Monty makes his methods very accessible to all of us, it is very well presented and when you watch or read each lesson it just makes all the sense in the world. I am a Monty Girl through and through. He is a legend!

A lot of good points have come up on both sides of this but as a canine behaviourist, I agree with Vicci and I am very much into Jan Fennell's methods. I trained with Dr Ian Dunbar when I worked at Battersea Dogs Home, London.
As for Parelli, well I have seen some not so nice things with him and his wife on the internet and let's be honest, I don't see why I should pay a lot of money to go on a course when Monty's methods work so well for me anyway. I do believe in being able to cherry pick ideas that work from wherever you need to and I am sure I could learn a lot but at the moment I don't really find I have a desperate need to go on his courses.

Interesting Rockstar! I am going to be doing a training session with Jans son, Tony Knight on April 4th and then off to Victoria Stilwells conference 6th and 7th. How wonderfu to have trained with Ian Dunbar!