Hi Julie,
Lucky you that you didn't get hurt more badly!
What you could have done, is take Oscar away from his feed, tie him at a safe post, rearrange his feed and hay in the shed and then take him to the shed or let him find it, without being in his way. Please try to avoid confrontations like this, in the herd horses have their packingorder, Oscar seems to think he's above you. This is a situation you could work on, but never in relation to food. Do a couple of good Join-ups with him, settle on a new level and be aware of him being dominant towards you.
Keep safe and let us know how you're doing,
Miriam

thanks miriam not sure when this came about thinking he was the boss? maybe as he got bigger than me! Yes I agree he will be tied up as I prepare feed or at least on a lead rope as we do the feeding thanks for your imput .

So pleased you were not more seriously injured, Unicorn as Oscar did cross the line in this situation. Tying him up while you prepare his food is a good thought but he will still need to learn to respect you and keep back while you are carrying his food. I would just continue to carry his food in as you always have but carry a lead rope with you or wand to shake at him and send him away as for join-up if he comes too close(eyes on him, raise your arm and shake the lead at him, maybe say Woo Back too). Make sure that you are not in his kick zone when you do this. Keep him away until you have the feed in his bowl and then only allow him to come in to eat if he is submissive and quiet. Walk away as soon as he commences eating. All my horses except Uggs are trained to go to their feed bowls and wait for me to put their feed in and stand back before they commence eating. Uggs is very spoilt and I do allow him to have a mouthful of food from the bucket as he is very gentle but it really is a big No,NO. Just seems to late to train him - he was very badly treated by a rough neigbour while on my parents property and I have tended to 'baby' him ever since.

great maggie i was going to ask the question about him respecting me while i feed and making him wait i throw his hay in a bin first just so his not so intent on the bucket of feed but i like the idea of carrying the lead rope and making him wait before he eats i think i need to regain some ground in this area.Uggs sound cool i used to have an older palimino he was 18 when i got him and full of manners he never over steped and i was only thirteen he was a good old boy i need some one like him again as well to help me with my young man oscar cheers maggie i will try this at his next feed julie

Julie I have also had some of the same problems when it comes to feeding. It takes time to train them to go to their feed bins. I never let them get a bite out of the feed buck while I'm taking it to their feed bin. I found that it makes the whole process take longer. I do send them away with my hand and arm motioning towards the stall or where the feed bin is located and tell him go to your stall. You have to be aggressive with your hand/arm signals in the direction of the stall and within several
feedings they will start to understand what you are asking of him. Soon all you will have to say to him when you come out with the feed is get to your stall. And he'll head that way. Sometimes he might look back if he does, just keep telling he go on. Once he gets about ten feet or so away from you start following him in keep telling him to go to his stall while you are walking behind him staying about ten feet away.
This has worked for me. Make sure you stay firm with him keep directing him towards his stall.
Over several days you should see some progress. Another thing you might keep in mind is motion him towards his stall before you even go into the paddock with the feed. Keep sending him in that direction with your arms. It might take a few minutes before
he figures out that your not entering until he starts moving away. He already knows where he gets feed.

Be safe that's the main thing. God bless I hope this helps.
My horse dancer is 2yrs and 16hands. Now he see's me coming with the food and by the time I get there he is patiently waiting.
I had to teach him this because when he was only four months old he kick both my husband and I. He was hand raised with milk his mother rejected him a birth. He got very aggressive back then when it came time to eat.

Julie

thanks julie sounds like dancer is a big boy oscar is already 14 1/2 h he is only 1year 4mths he is well built too
its funny because we have always fed just at the gate and his bins are there but like i said because it was raining i thought id feed him there. Im pretty sure because he is so familiar with our routine it just through him of but stiil i will try what you have said also. What a joy to raise your horse this way, im sure it was plenty of hard work and an interesting journey . thanks julie let you know how we go

Your welcome, It has been a very interesting journey for both my
husband and I, I always feed the grain in the stall just in case it's raining, If its nice out I'll feed the hay outside,but I had to keep him on the same routine with the grain. We have started some ground work with him in the round pen, and that has
been very interesting as well. We have a hard time sending him away because of the bond we have. We have to use things like a foiled pie plate on the end of a long stick. He goes away but rebels against it. And comes in at me like I don't want to go away. I think he should learn how to lunge before we can ride. So everyday is a new day with Dancer. But wouldn't change a thing we just love this horse. Julie

wow its hearing you say he wont go away from you i find that with oscar ive had him scince he was six mths old and he dosent like to be sent away .somtimes i think he knows i love him to much and he uses that to his advantage.Does he stop and look at you when you try and send him away thats what oscar does to me like his saying whast up whats going on?anyway happy horsing sounds like we are doing similiar stages julie

Yep he hates it. I think with time and more encouraging he'll learn its not the end of the world! He hates it so bad he looks at me as if to say really!!!!. And once I do get him moving its not for long, then he's coming in at me!!!. And most of the time its not with a happy face!!!

hi Julie and Unicorn- you really do need to keep him going until they show you most of the 4 signs - inside ear twitching, head down, smaller circles, licking and chewing -otherwise the join-up exercise is worthless and they haven't learnt from it. When they do come in they should be coming in submissively and happily. Just be very forceful and determined when you send them out. It is magical when you get it right and afterwards the repeat sessions should be easy as they know what to expect - Monty recommends not to do it too often with the same horse. However whenever Tricka gets a bit bossy and cranky its back to my make shift menage for a join-up session. You can just send them away so easily in the field after they understand join up and they know that they can only come in if they are submissive. It works for so many field paddock problems e.g. if they resist getting caught in the field just send them away until they come up and ask for you to put the halter on. It is great for Tricka as otherwise she could become quite bossy and aggressive.

thanks maggie, I have been able to do join-up with all my other horses. But for some reason Dancer is giving me the most trouble.
I have a very hard time just getting him to move away. And then
once he starts going (maybe one time around the pen) he's coming in at me. Do you think I might only get one or two of the
signs. (Remember I've raised him since he was one day old.) I'm wondering if maybe we're already joined-up. I'm just not sure????
He can be laying down in he's stall and I can go right up to him
and love on him, and he just stays there. He has so much trust in
me already.

Since you've raised him it could also be that you are facing similar problems to what I have with my 4-year-old.
Having been close to me all his life and never given a reason to distrust people, he has all the trust in the world in me, but not enough respect.
.
This is clearly expressed in the way he likes to be the one doing the sending away (when he disagrees with what I am doing), and is quite put off when I attempt to use this tactic on him.
Unfortunately, I don't have a space large enough to be safe doing a proper Join-up. I do believe we would both benefit from that experience. (Maybe I can catch Ann when she is in the vicinity...) ;)

If I could do somethings over in the begining of our relationship
I would have sent him away more in the begining. But I can't look back at what I should've done. I have been sending him away more just in his paddock lately. And it might be just for a second or two but I think he's starting to respect me more. I have to admit he has been pushing me around for several months I've had some neck and shoulder problems so I've felt pretty wimpy around him. I've been work on getting them straighten out. But its been a slow process. I'am starting to feel a whole lot better now. I do have a round pen but it is only 40ft. And we're going to add some more panels to get to the 50ft I think I need for Dancer. It worked ok for the smaller horses but he's so big 16h @ 2yrs. So we don't have much room to move around. I did see Monty's join up with big brown and it was awesome. So I'm going to try it in his paddock which is quiet a bit bigger then the round pen I have.
I must say the first month of his life was touch and go. He was born with e-coli. and was a very sick little boy. Almost died twice. Then once he did start to recover his mother rejected him and didn't want anything to do with him. She new he was very sick. Then we new we had to nurture him and feed him. Maybe nurtured alittle to much. But who won't have he was pretty pitiful. Once he got stronger maybe six months or so.
I started letting him out with the other horses so they could teach him how to be a respectful horse. He has learned a lot from them. It was pretty hard to watch but I knew he needed to learn from them. So I thank God for that. And he's still learning today. Everyday he's turned out with a mare I have that like's to teach him that she's the boss. And boy does he licking and chewing around her. I hope to get that same response someday and I'm sure I will. I just have to work my way up to it. I sure didn't save this boys life so he could disrepect me.

Thanks for everyone's encouraging words.

Hi Julie (Unicorn too)- Dancer is a lucky boy that you saved him and you have both had an incredible journey so far. It is so good that you were able to turn him out with other horses as that is so important for them. He should learn to respond to join up now he has the mare to teach him how. It is so hard to watch our babies learn from older horses but it is a lesson they need and we can't teach it to them. Sometimes they are so trusting and joined up already that it is very hard to achieve "join-up" with them but I believe we need to do it to gain their respect. If you are sending him away in the paddock only for a few seconds that is a great start. I send Tricka away any time she comes up to me without due respect but it is only for a few seconds until she comes in correctly however it is important that they only come back on our terms. Same as when you are doing join-up. It is fine if Dancer only gives you a few signs but he must not come in unless you turn your shoulder and invite him in as Monty or Kelly do. If he comes in on his own terms then he is in charge not you and this does not help him respect you. Send him out forcefully, keep him going by shaking the lead rope at him and making yourself look really aggressive until he commences with the signs - try to get as many signs as you can - if he turns in to you before you are ready then you must send him out again and only allow him in when YOU decide it is appropriate. An effective join up is just great as you know the respect is now there as well as the trust and love but it is harder to achieve with the spoilt hand fed poddied horse. Watch your mare with him and do the same!! I know it is hard to be this tough but it is a must and at least you are not nipping or kicking him as the mare does.

its interesting to read what your saying julie because i also have come to the conclusion that he relly knows i didnt want to send him away he felt it im sure,that our bond is stong . but after he caught me with that kick i relised its a bit like my parenting as my kids grow i have to let them go its relly tough in the begining to send them of {AWAY} to preschool when all we have known is us together but we know its a valuable lesson to learn for me and my children. In the paddock the other day i went walking with my husband and oscar would just come blasting straight at us but i turnd held my hands high and made him go away he is geting relly cheeky and testing his boundries he needs to respect my boundries its tuff love but what use is a dangerouse horse so i will teach him and me to push him away for both our sakes . I made him move of a few times i didnt get the lowering of the head but i did get licking and chewing and ears on me so i steped across himm turnd my back dropped my shoulders and he new to step in i also think your idea that you have joined up is valid because i feel the same but in saying that oscar thinks its okay for him to choose when to come in wich im changing . well thats my little rant he he happy horsing guys thanks for all the imput maggie kikki it relly helps

Yep I agree with both of you. Several months ago I realized I really needed to get better control of him. I've been using the dually for about a year now. I guess it was around the begining of Mar this yr. I started trying to work with him in the round pen, and was using a whip not to hit him with, but to encourage him to move away and around the pen. I would just hit the ground
behide his back legs. And boy he didn't like it. He turned in and
looked at me with fire in he's eyes. Stomped his foot. And even
reared up and came at me. After that I feared for my saftey. So
I called a local trainer to see if she could help me with him.
She used the whip with a bag on the end. I thought maybe since
he didn't know her that he might move away easier. And at first
he did. But after about a minute or two. He had had enough of her
moving him to and did the same thing he had done to me but the
only thing was she didn't back down. And after several minutes of
them sparing at one another. He finally backed off and continued
around the pen. (But she didn't do join-up big mistake!!) She starting coming twice a week. And things did seem to be improving. Until one day he decided to try and get her with the back legs. He was kicking out so bad. But every time he would kick out (and I mean with both legs) at her she would whip him. I thought this is not going to work. I don't want some whipping on my horse like that. My husband said Monty doesn't use whips and we're not going to either. So I put a stop to his training the way she wanted to do it. I told her we needed to go back to the basic's with the halter and do more of Monty's halter work. So that is what we've been doing for several weeks. I am seeing some improvement in his overall temperment/respect. (He really isn't a mean horse) We have been working on the standing still lesson. Because Monty says by doing this lesson your getting control of his feet phychologically. Seems to be working. We also have been working on backing him up with the dually halter. I have seen alot more respect lately which I think is do to these lesson's. And hopefully once we get this all down good will go back and try a full join-up. Thanks guys for any and all
of your advice. This has been a real learning process for me. I
have had horses for over 30yrs. And trained several to ride. But never bottle feed one and totally cared for one from the start like this, he has been a real challenge!!!!!!

Julie (here I go again!) I am so pleased that you and your husband sent that trainer away. Holding and shaking a whip or wand to move a horse out is one thing and sometimes necessary for your safety with an aggressive horse but using it as a whip I believe is a real NO,NO as it will only make the horse less trustful and may even encourage it to fight back. It sounds as if the trainer initially had some success so try to pick up on the good things she did e.g. not backing down. Your work with the dually sounds to be really paying off so continue with that for awhile prior to attempting join up again. Really work on him with the dually for up to 30 minutes daily or as often as possible - moving him back out of your space, strong discipline with it - straight arm and strong jerks on the dually if he goes to nip or shows any signs of disrespect, moving him in a circle, backing up quite a distance - 3-5 metres and even further if he is still not responsive, walking in the sweet spot, stopping on command in the sweet spot beside you, standing still, progress to trotting with you in the sweet spot and stopping. Aim to control his feet as Monty says the one who controls the movement of the feet is in charge so try not to allow him to move you - you be the mover. That is the importance of not backing down as your trainer demonstrated to you. Remember lots of praise when he gets it right - talking to him, rubbing his head and where ever he likes it best - withers and chest are good spots as it is hard for them to reach these areas themselves. When you feel that he is respecting you with the dually and moving away from you when you ask him to then it maybe time to try join up again. Take care to make sure you are out of his kick zone before you attempt to send him off you may need your whip/wand but try arms up and shaking the lead rope at him first - be forceful and strong as you have been during the dually training. Move towards him agressively, eyes on and don't back off unless it is a safety issue. If it is a lunging whip you are going to use as back up then attach the whip end to the handle with some rubber bands to make it resemble a stick or wand so that it doesn't look like a whip. If he was whipped with it by the trainer he may be quite fearful of it as a whip now and could think that he needs to fight it. Keep it handy so that you can easily reach it if he does not move away initially - maybe tie some plastic bags on the end if that worked for the trainer. If you need to use this whip/wand then keep it with you to move him on but when you are almost ready to ask him to come in put the whip on the ground and move away from it and try to keep him going for awhile with your arms and lead rope and then slowly drop down your action as Monty does in preparation for join-up then move towards him a little across his path with arms folded as Monty does, turn your shoulder to him, turn and walk towards the centre of the round pen with you back to him. I am sure you will find him walking behind you docily so turn, eyes down and give him lots of pats and praise. Watch as many of Monty's videos with join-up with different horses and also Kellly Marks before you try the next time - Kelly and the donkeys is quite a good one as at the end of that video Kelly is faced with a stubborn donkey that refuses to go out for join-up. You may even care to practice without Dancer and see how aggressive and forceful you can make yourself initially maybe your husband can even act as Dancer!!. When you do try join up have your husband watch it just in case something goes wrong plus wear your helmet. Good luck with it and I will be looking forward to hearing of your progress - I know you are totally experienced so this is all a bit surplus. Poddies are so different but they do become magnificent horses once that respect is there. If Dancer had shown no bossiness or aggression then none of this would be necessary but now he needs to learn! It is tough but I am sure you disciplined your children at times and it is the same.

Maggie, Thanks for the advice. Actually I didn't send that trainer away. She still is helping me with a mare I recused.
She is five and a 1 1/2 yrs ogo when I got her. She was very
out of control didn't respect your space and would run you over
when it came to feed time. The girl who had her before was very heavy with hitting her with whips/hoses and anything she could find to keep her off of her. I took this mare in and we have built a great deal of trust in each other. I told the trainer that she could stay and help me with Sky, but there are to be no whips the only thing you need with this mare is your body language. And the trainer agreed to help me with her. (In a sense I wanted to show this girl that you don't need to whip a horse to get them to work with you.) She once told me that she hated to go to peoples houses and start whipping on their horses. I let her come to my computer and watch Monty do join-up. She said she did see some of Monty's lesson's on TV. So I hope to help her with her training as well. Teach her that she doesn't need to whip the horse to get it to move. I did join-up with Sky in the round pen first the handed her off to the trainer. Then asked the trainer to do join-up as well. She did it but not as well as I did. But it got done. I could tell she was nervous she was use to having the whip. And Sky could as well
but they got I done. Sky is teaching me alot about the Equus language. She has been a challange to work with as well and has
come a long way in a years time. You see we live in Lebanon,TN
in the USA. And their aren't any trainers that I know of that don't us a whip. Or even really practice Monty's methods. So by
teaching her she will teach others. And the horses will all win
in the end. That's my goal. "For my love of Horses".
Thanks for the advice again with Dancer. We will continue the Dually Halter work until I feel its time to get him back in the
round pen to do join up, I don't know how long this will take but
I'll keep you updated. And by the way don't leave the Univ. You
have been a big help with encouraging me with Dancer. Thanks Again. Julie

Julie - well done! I am so pleased that you are now training your trainer! She sounds to be responsive to change too which is really good - another Monty convert on the way. We learn so much from our abused horses don't we? They are the best teachers of what NOT to do. Take care and keep us up to date.