I have a filly, Esprit, (2 yrs) who has the best temperment. She's calm and gentle and has been trusting and inquisitive since she was born two years ago. We have her and her mother and she's much more trusting and gentle than her mom. We can touch her all over and pick up her feet, etc.
We've recently brought them to our property which is a small clearing in the woods that has a small corral that the two of them live in. In the corral there's a very small clump of scrub trees in the middle.
Today, I tied the mom outside of the corral (first problem I think since the filly could see the mom grazing), and then tried to send her away. She stood there looking at me like 'wait why do you want me to leave? we love each other?'. Then she finally went, still trying to figure out what was going on. Finally I had her running. After she got tired she walked over to her water and started drinking. So I chased her from her water and tried to get her going again. Every time she'd run behind the little copse of trees I'd have to chase her out. Also she'd stop to take comfort from her mom.
After a while I noticed her ear on me (it was the whole time) - there was no licking or chewing, there was a slowing (which I think was just fatigue) and there was a very slight lowering of her head. I just decided to call it good. I put my back to her, offered her my shoulder. She came over and sniffed my shoulder, but MUCH slower than she would have if I'd not have tried Join Up. And then followed me a few steps. I tried to take her to the water after and she was uneasy to go to it.
All in all I was pretty discouraged. I couldn't help but wonder if I'd damaged our relationship and what (besides tying her mother elsewhere) I could do differently.
Hi Jefra - My comments are going to be blunt but they are not aimed at your personally, I don't know you, and they are made from your horses perspective so please don't think I am being critical.
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Those that have been here as long as I have will be sick of me saying this but I have to say it again. Many people are missing the point of what Join Up is. It is not something you just DO as a matter of course or because you want to "try it out". Join Up is a process for gaining a horses trust where that trust is not yet established or is uncertain. So while I could spend quite some time analysing your method and why it didn't work etc. there is no point; other than to say that you should NEVER keep them running to a point where they are tired; the whole process should take place over about a quarter of a mile and about 20 minutes or so. The point is, you already have Join Up; you said so in your opening statement, "..has the best temperament...calm and gentle...trusting..." so what were you trying to achieve?
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So, you had a horse that trusted you, and then one day you decided to send her away, and when she didn't want to leave you (because there was no need to) you chased her away, not only from you, but from water. You ask, "What could I do differently?" You already did differently, you need to go back to "doing the same" i.e. enjoying the good relationship and Join Up that you already have; "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Put it down to a bad decision, your horse will forgive you, they are incredibly forgiving, forgive yourself for temprorarily confusing your horse to death, pick up where you were and enjoy the relationship you already have :-) If you want to do Join UP, go find a friends horse that doesn't know you! Hope that helps :-)
Totally agree with Vicci's comments especially for a young horse that has learnt to trust you. The whole situation was wrong too - large corral, trees in middle, mother outside, water as a distraction. This experience has no doubt damaged your relationship so now you will need to build it up again to re gain the trust. If your horse is bossy, ignoring your leader ship and generally not responsive or trusting then they do need to become joined up and Monty's Join Up procedure is the fastest and most appropriate way to achieve this but it can also be achieved by building a trusting leadership type relationship over time with your horse from birth. Please. ... If your horse is already joined up and responsive to you then DON'T confuse them by trying Join Up with them. Thanks Vicci!
Maggie and Vicci, thank you for your follow up. Gosh I feel pretty bad now.
I have to confess that I feel like something of a new parent here - always questioning whether I should do one thing or the other. Trying to do one's best but still managing to mess it up. As such, I feel out of my league in totally unfamiliar territory, which is why advice from you is helpful.
I was under the impression of a couple things. #1 - Join-Up can be done with any horse to further strenghten the bond between owner and horse (now I'm questioning whether my other horse, the momma, is Joined up or not...how the heck would I know? she's nice but aloof) #2 - That Join Up could never hurt a horse/human relationship (obviously I learned the hard way that it can hurt when it's done improperly) and can be repeated occasionally to further strengthen the bond between a horse and owner.
My mares have never been given the opportunity or chance to actually "choose" me and I thought that was an important part of the Monty Roberts process. But it sounds like maybe they don't need to make the choice if they're nice enough to you (sorry I really am trying to figure this out). So if you're not seeing any communication from the horse, do you just abort the process? Does that leave the horse hanging, undecided?
Now, how do I mend my relationship with my filly. Do I take her to an actual round pen and properly repeat the process or do you recommend another way. Will I have to do a join up now that our relationship is 'damaged'?
ALSO -- and this is a biggie - since that failed Join Up, she's started biting me. She's always been a little mouthy and curious, using her mouth to figure things out, but now she'll lip something - like my leg or my skirt - and then put her ears back and really try to take a bite. Any ideas on how I should handle that? I feel like an idiot.
Hi, don't beat yourself up about it, we all make mistakes and we all had to start somewhere, I made some horrendous gaffes when I started out on a horse journey, we've all been there and we're all here to support you and to learn from you too, none of us knows everything :-) Ok, for ease and convenience I will just list answers to your points/questions:
1. Yes it can be done to further strengthen the bond IF THE BOND NEEDS STRENGTHENING The easiest way to think about it is to imagine someone like me being a pain in the butt and every time you go to do something I'm standing there saying, "So tell me why you are doing that" If your answer comes easily and makes sense go ahead! (I can't tell you how many times I've said that to myself and the answer has been "Actually I don't think I know why I'm doing it!"
2. It can be repeated occasionally...yes, if you are introdu cing something new, have been absent for a long time, want to introduce a new person etc etc. it can be useful BUT NOT ESSENTIAL
3. Your mare: if she is 'nice', doing what you ask of her, polite then she is Joined Up! Slightly aloof might be her personality.
4. Your mares choosing you - they are there aren't they? Doing stuff for you? Do they run away at the first sight of you? Doesn't sound like it haha What do you want? Hugs and kisses? It's not going to happen!! (just teasing)
5. If you are not getting communication during a Join Up session you're not doing it right - it's you that's not communicating, not the horse. Ommitting signals is communication - go back and study the Join Up videos again and again (you can never look at them too much)
6. Re: your filly - NO don't take her to a round pen and confuse her again! Get a Dually, she's probably a bit cross with you (accept it, she has a right to be) and is now doubting your leadership. Stay calm, use the dually to keep her out of your space, make friends with her again and it will all settle down.
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Finally, I have one piece of advice. Please ease up and relax, I can almost see you chewing your lip, chewing your nails, analysing everything to death, beating yourself up and worrying!. You are not an idiot but you will convey all that stress and worry to your horses and your youngster is reacting to it. Please relax, calm down, start again, and enjoy your horses :-). Ok, that's enough bossy lecturing from me!
Please don't feel bad you did your best and meant well. We have all been there too. We all constantly make mistakes and as Vicci says your horse will forgive you. For now I would just try to build up the relationship you have but the nippy needs to be corrected. Given you attempted join up with your filly I am assuming she has been trained to be halter led and that you have a dually. For now concentrate on ground work with the dually and use the dually to correct the nipping habit. Given she is becoming nippy and a little bossy with the ears back then join up will improve your relationship but I wouldn't try it again unless you have access to a suitable area. Perhaps you could build yourself a round yard while you continue to train her with the dually. Even if it takes twelve months as mine did she will still only be 3 when you finish it. It will be useful later too when you have her started and need a safe place for those first rides. I had my land flattened and then built a post and rail yard and topped it off with a load of sand. Hard work but easy enough if you take it slowly. You can see mine on our Facebook site with Chester and my grand- daughter.
Please don't feel bad you did your best and meant well. We have all been there too. We all constantly make mistakes and as Vicci says your horse will forgive you. For now I would just try to build up the relationship you have but the nippy needs to be corrected. Given you attempted join up with your filly I am assuming she has been trained to be halter led and that you have a dually. For now concentrate on ground work with the dually and use the dually to correct the nipping habit. Given she is becoming nippy and a little bossy with the ears back then join up will improve your relationship but I wouldn't try it again unless you have access to a suitable area. Perhaps you could build yourself a round yard while you continue to train her with the dually. Even if it takes twelve months as mine did she will still only be 3 when you finish it. It will be useful later too when you have her started and need a safe place for those first rides. I had my land flattened and then built a post and rail yard and topped it off with a load of sand. Hard work but easy enough if you take it slowly. You can see mine on our Facebook site with Chester and my grand- daughter.
Please don't feel bad you did your best and meant well. We have all been there too. We all constantly make mistakes and as Vicci says your horse will forgive you. For now I would just try to build up the relationship you have but the nippy needs to be corrected. Given you attempted join up with your filly I am assuming she has been trained to be halter led and that you have a dually. For now concentrate on ground work with the dually and use the dually to correct the nipping habit. Given she is becoming nippy and a little bossy with the ears back then join up will improve your relationship but I wouldn't try it again unless you have access to a suitable area. Perhaps you could build yourself a round yard while you continue to train her with the dually. Even if it takes twelve months as mine did she will still only be 3 when you finish it. It will be useful later too when you have her started and need a safe place for those first rides. I had my land flattened and then built a post and rail yard and topped it off with a load of sand. Hard work but easy enough if you take it slowly. You can see mine on our Facebook site with Chester and my grand- daughter.
We posted together, Vicci! I was up late! My IPad has been playing up so I guess I pushed Add Comment a few times. Does anyone know if we can delete posts ourselves and how we can do it or does this have to be done by support!
Thank you both so much. I have to admit that I do freak out if I don't feel like I have a very solid understanding of what needs to happen, how and why. And you've been so helpful!
ANOTHER question for you - what's the purpose after doing anything with the Dually, or anything else, of going around directly in front of the horse and rubbing his forehead. I get the rubbing of the forehead, but why going right in front of his face rather than just rubbing his neck or withers?
AND I agree - it'd be nice to be able to have a little more flexibility here in the forum and do things like edit your own comments and delete comments that were accidentally posted.
J. Starr not to sure of your meaning here or my answer! If you are practicing leading in the sweet spot stopping , starting, turning and backing up with the dually then you do stay beside them in the sweet spot and just give them a rub on the neck and a 'good girl' ' good boy' comment in a purrs voice - it is the tone of your voice they respond to. For unresponsive behaviour it is a sharp jerk on the dually and a growls voice - I use a guttural ' Uh Uh' type sound. When doing join up and the have joined up to your turned shoulder back then you do turn in front of their head with eyes averted and give them a good rub on their head. They love to be rubbed on their heads as it is difficult for them to rub their themselves. When teaching them to stand I stand in front of them, eyes on eyes and ready to correct with a jerk on the dually for any movement and other hand up like stay for a dog and 'uh uh' or ' no'. For standing still rub on forehead and once they have got it drop the lead rope and step backwards still with eyes on them and ready to correct/reward. Hope this makes sense.
A lot of errors - apologies for that!
Only one thing to add to Maggies good comments, Monty stays that the rubbing of the forehead further establishes trust - horses are not brilliant at things being very close up and this is a bit of a 'blind spot' so the horse accepting this without moving away demonstrates his trust and comfort with the person doing it.
Dear J Starr. I am a surgeon. When I ever started a new method I just copied it, did it exactly as the person who taught it to me. I did modifications much later. I think you have started Monty's method in your own way. There is a great risk that it does not work like this. You absolutely need a small place to work. You must know the body language, yours and the one of the horse, and you absolutely have to copy whatever you see in videos, read or what has been instructed to you. I have two proposals: Start with an easy horse (the mother, after the separation from the filly) or try to make a practical course.
Anyway, when your first attempt does not work don't be disappointed. The trust of your filly will return quickly.
Rudi
That's so true Rudi, I copied Monty, Kelly, (and dog trainers as I work with dogs too) when I started even to the point where I said things in the way they did and heard myself saying what they said! Only later did I start developing my own training personality :-) "You have to know the rules before it's safe to bend or break them"
joining in, J Starr on your comment.....
She's always been a little mouthy and curious, using her mouth to figure things out, but now she'll lip something - like my leg or my skirt - and then put her ears back and really try to take a bite. Any ideas on how I should handle that? I feel like an idiot.
you've changed how she views you the biting at the legs she is trying to herd you as if in challenge, so when you tried the join up because you didn't fully succeed she's now questioning your leadership. you need to wear some sturdy trousers, buggy top and boots. When she bites you it's essential that you do not move, if she bites your body area, just let her hold the baggy top, look at her and stare her out, she will drop her head in submission. If she goes to bite your legs, do not move your legs!!!!!! Stand still, use a stern no or uh uh, and look again directly in the eye. If she does not show submission you need to send her away, depending on how you're standing when she bites depends on what you need to do, you need to get eye to eye contact so if she's behind and biting, turn suddenly and lock your eyes on, but that's not enough... You need to frown as if you are angry and make you're body bigger, if she still doesn't respect this action, use a lunge rope and spin it to generate pressure. Do not touch her with the rope, you are just going to create wind pressure and sound. When she goes away from you release the pressure immediately by turning 45% to the side and look occupied, she will either stay away which is fine just leave her a few minutes if she does!, then approach her and reward. If she comes straight back this is still a challenge, increase the pressure and send her away again. Become passive again when she responds. The end result should be that she stays away for a few minutes, then you approach her and reward. It should not take more than 2-3 goes of sending her away before she respects you. Afterwards make sure you have quality time.
Mel
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Thats what i do with Libby when her mouth gets a bit much in my direction - snapping the eyes on hard & a fast movement towards them usually backs them off, i then keep my eyes on her eye & she will come almost immediately to say sorry by half closing her eyes, licking & chewing & coming right to me.
When I first got my Princess, she was 2 and already very gentle. I never could do join up with her, she followed me everywhere without it and just couldn't understand why I wanted her to go away. I finally came to the conclusion she was already joined up and I didn't have to do anything else about it. Now, at 5, she still follows me everywhere. Maybe part of it was because she had never been alone until I got her and I was the only companion she had until we got Emmett, but she still wanted to be with me. She joined herself up with me, I didn't have to do a thing.
I tried the join up process with both of my horses yesterday and was so pleased to have both of them do it almost as Monty described, including the follow-up. I have to say, however, that they both did a pretty good job of following me around already, and seemed a bit confused as to what was going on. I trained them with Clinton Anderson's Method and they couldn't quite figure out that why when I stepped across to ask them to change directions, I didn't just want them to stop and turn in like they already know how to do. I agree with the previous statements, I think I've already achieved join up with my horses.
I think you have :-) Sounds like you had a great time.
I can so relate to this....my 8 month old filly had a mum who chased her away from 3 months old, and so Bonnie is desperate to be joined to somebody . It has created aN aloof nature in her, but I can see she really wants to bond strongly. However, if she is miffed about something, or introduced tosomething new ( her winter foal rug) , she squeals and charges around the round pen aiming kicks at me........i was not sure what to do, but had just seen Monty in Shepparton, Victoria, Australia...I had a think and decided to work on join up. We had to work through a bit of a tantrum on her part as she did not want to be sent away. It was tricky as I know it was what happened to her as a baby. The difference was that I then allowed her in and loved her up after she showed the signs, which happened right after the tantie.........in fact she just stopped, looked at me and walked up to me...... am hoping thiswill create a bond and respect between us. I was able to groom and rug her straight after this, no problems, no squeals.....it is a delicate balance with Bonnie, but I am pleased I know her background as this helped me to work out what to do. A bit like a parent...firm but fair......hope I did ok..........
Hi. Yes - you did good. The golden rule is to meet your horses needs. If they are already comfortable with your company & accepting of new objects then perhaps they consider they have "Joined up" already. However, in most cases where you interact with an unfamiliar horse or pony it is advantageous to use "Join up" to establish trust. Good luck. Cheers, Jo.
Great stuff Gladcam, sounds like you had a lovely experience :-)
J.star, to answer your question on the why of rubbing the forehead. Horses cannot see directly in front of them (or directly) behind them. So my dear, if a horse will allow you to rub between their eyes you know you have their trust.
About the lipping and nips that the horse is trying. Question: has it always done this? Is this something new?
Depending on the answer will bring you to the correct conclusion.
Has the horse been hand feed? Do you give the horse its feed and then walk away?
Information can help you get the correct answers.
If a horse starts hitting out of the blue something serious has happened.
If they are nipping your clothing they have not been taught to respect your space.
So many put the horse feed in the bucket drop it in front of the horse and walk away. The horse then relates the food with you. Much better to either put the bucket further away and let them find it or put the feed down put you hand in front of it, wait a moment,and then give them permission to start feeding.
This teaches your horse to respect feeding time and you.
Do not worry about join-up being done a hundred times. An intelligent horse will trust you if you make"mistakes".
You show confidence and they will follow. I hope this helps in some way. Keep your chin up, all will be well.
Sorry that was button out of the blue
Oh my tablet is such a pin. That is biteing.
Hi jp: jstarr post was made July 2014; I don't think she is on the forum any more (apologies jstarr if you are still here!). Doesn't mean what you say isn't valid and we can all make use of it, just wanted to let you know in case you were expecting a response :-)