Ooops, Sorry about that. Still getting used to this laptop!

So the rest of the story is ....
3 lovely horses - one who has severed her tendon, an absolutely stunning (and sometimes a bit silly) arabian mare, who I love to pieces (mother of the filly). And a beautiful colt, who I love but also drives me insane!

My dilema is my colt - he is 1/2 Arabian & half Brumby. I tried to join up with him for over an hour this morning, but he just wouldn't do it and I don't know what I'm doing wrong. It got to the point where we were both exhausted, but he wouldn't drop his head or lick and chew on the circle. He had his ear on me, and was coming in on smaller circles, but not the last 2 signs. It was almost as if he was fighting it. He would put his head down then toss it in the air and keep going.

So I thought, ok I have 2 signs and we are both exhausted, so I'll try join up with what we have. But he refused to come in to me. He just stood there. So I'd send him back out again. He did the ear on me and the smaller circles but that was all. He threw a few tantrums even trying to turn in on me and rearing in front of me, until I sent him back out - but I just couldn't get the licking or his head down. So finally (due to both of us being completely worn out) I gave up.

I followed up with my Mare and we had join up in about 10 minutes (yay!). But she will do anything to get out of work, so I guess it was an easy choice for her!

Anyway - I just don't know what to do with my boy. Maybe it's the brumby in him - even though Montys techniques have been developed through the american mustangs. I'm just at my wits end. I don't want to give up on him, but I'm thinking maybe he is too big a challenge for my level of knowledge.

Does anyone have any ideas or similar experiences?

Thanks,
Cherie

Cherie
Just a couple of things. How old is your colt? My first guess is that he is too young to really do join up with. One other thing that I would do i if he is not doing what you want him to do, stop what you are doing, take a break then think about not only what you are asking the horse to do but how you are asking. If you are trying to do join up for over an hour, your frustration level i high as well as your adrenaline. Your colt will be feeling the same way.

If your colt is at least two years old, I would try to do join up again, but first go back and look at how Monty does the join up. It is very precise and he does it the same way every time. You need to get that technique firmly in your mind. Visualization will help set the actions in your mind so you don't have to think about what you are doing because your body will tell you if you are doing it correctly. Visualization takes lots of time. Running the excise over and over again in your mind. It does work!

So next time you do a join up and it does not go well just stop, walk away from it but take your more with you and just walk with him, stopping and giving him a rub every so often then try it again later. What you don't want is your horse to get into the habit of not doing join up.

I hope I have not sounded too critical. I know that you can do this. Just be patient with yourself and your horses.

Cheers

And Cherie,

Video it and please share this with us, to put it on you tube (like Ronda is doing now), so we can see what you are doing and we can give you advice on this.
Also if you watch your own video you will be suprised to see what you are doing and what you can do better.
It is not the horse or the technique Monty is doing it is you who is doing something different, and the horse is reacting on that. So what Monty says look into the mirror.....
I am not attacking you Cherie, but that's how my experiences are when something is not going right in connection with my horse(s).
I am a beginner and have to learn a lot and yes things are not going right all the time. Does it matter? No... if we can learn from it and watch Monty's video's again and act on this.
Give yourself the time to overfew the situation and do it step by step. Don't make it to difficult for you and your horse, oké?

Good luck,
May.

Hi Cherie,
Something that might help you a lot is to go to the lessons tab and look at all the join-up videos, over and over again.
You will notice in there that Monty says to us at home that you may not get all four signs.
As soon as he turns his head towars you, he is saying I want to come to you. If you want to at that time turn your back at the 45 degree angle and he will come to you.
Watch them over and over and take notes too.
This helped me so much.
It will help you too, I promise.
Ronda

Hi Cherie,
I agree with the others. The best thing you can do is to take a step back and watch the join up vids over and over...there may be just one little thing you are missing. And yes that can be terribly frustrating! I had a thouroughbred who after 2 join up's would sometimes eliminate one or two of the signs, but would always turn to me, that's when i tried join up and he responded, so maybe try that? Also if he has brumby in him he will be even more able to read your body language...this may come across as him being hard to reach...but it just means you have to be easier to read!! I have just purchased a brumby...fresh out of the wild. He will be arriving on my property in a few weeks...keep an eye out for any post from me on my ability to join up with him :-)
I wish you all the best!
Janelle

Hi everyone! Thanks very much for all your comments.

Just to clarify, he is 22 months old so perhaps a tad too young for join up. However I have tried again, turning on an angle to him when he turns in to me wanting to come in. He still doesn't want to draw in, but perhaps he is too young and more than likely I'm still not doing it right in his mind! So I've not pushed him, instead given him a pat and turned him out.

The good news is that I did join up with my mare again this morning and she was awesome! She even followed me at a bit of a jog! It's nice to have some success!

Anyway, I've made the really heartbreaking decision to find a good natural home for my colt. He deserves someone that is going to have alot more time for him. He is an awesome little horse, and I'm sure a great canditate for a natural horsemanship upbringing.

ps. good luck with your new edition Janelle! My colt's dad was fresh from the wild, and he turned out to be an awesome horse :)

Hi Cherie23
I am glad you have some good news to report! A win..even if a small one, is always a god feeling :-) And making those heartbreaking desicions is really awful but the best for the horse.
Thanks for the encouragement with my new edition too! I am sure he will turn out to be a great horse :-)

Oops i meant good feeling :-) typing too fast!

Hi Cherie
.
I just wanted to say that I'm glad you were able to join-up with your mare :-)
.
The other thing I wanted to ask, is that when your colt gets "stuck" after turning into you, are you arcing? For example, if he stops, are you walking in a small arc, turning in front of him again and asking him in again? Then if he gets stuck again, walk in an arc in the other direction and do the same? I have seen Monty Roberts arc in some of his demonstrations, and we learnt how to do this at the Intro Course too. Its very effective in getting their feet moving again.
.
Either way, best of luck with finding him a new home.
.
Hi Janelle
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Can't wait to hear how you go with your new brumby :-)
.
Kind regards,
.
Gen

Hi Gen

Only a month to go till i get him home! Will definately put up some posts when i begin my journey with him :-)

Janelle

Hi Janelle
.
So exciting!! :-)
.
Gen

We love watching your progress. A side note that Monty deems a horse old enough to achieve Join-Up when they are weaned and stop crying out for their mother.

Hi Cherie,
I tend to agree in thinking he's too young to have learnt just yet to interact with the other horses and understand that language equs concidering he's only a baby.
I wanted to share with you my experiences with join up, I buy unwanted race horses and re-educate them i have achieved join up with every single one of them its an amazing feeling and the first step to making them realise your different. However, having said this my first horse who i still have, i've had for almost 10 years and i have never ever been able to achieve join up with him. For one he looks at me when i try to chase him away as though i'm crazy :P but i believe it is because i got him when he was three he was injured as a foal and taken from his mother early so i think he simply never learnt it himself. I think there are many different levels of join up and though i think its essential i also know that me and my first horse have a version of join up unique to ourselves. But as everyone has said dont give up give him and yourself time :)
Han

Hi Cherie

There is some lovely advice on here for you so I won't rabbit on! But I have a couple of thoughts for you to consider

1. At 22 months, a horse is absolutely not too young to do Join Up, quite the contraruy.

2. The language you use in your intial description is interesting: very much putting the responsibility on the horse to "do it" e.g "...he wouldn't do it...he refused..he had a tantrum..etc." He is actually communicating with you an awful lot but you may be missing some of the signals. Another example is you say that your mare Joined up with you to "get out of doing any work"; this is a disservice to both yourself and your mare: you clearly gave out the message she could trust you, thats why she Joined Up with you.

My point is that the principle of Join Up is exactly that "Join" i.e. a partnership, not just a set of things that they must do, its a communication and an "elegant dance" where you both understand each other.

I very often have to spend time reflecting inwards on what I do as I can get overly results focused/impatient if I don't keep a close eye on my own emotions and reasons for doing things.

I hope this helps, best wishes

Vicci

Hi again Cherie,
I agree with Vicci. Your horse is not too young to do join-up.
When I first rescued MY STAR she was not yet a year and I did join-up right away.
This was the only way I could get her to trust me enough to get near her and it was done in a large field.
It took a few times and a lot of patience on my part and hers but we did it.
I love waht Monyt says," If you can't get join-up, look in the mirror, you caused the problem, now you have to fix it."
Watch those videos as I suggested, some of the horses Monty has done join-up with are very young,
They are born knowing the language of equus, they know what you want if you ask properly, again watch the videos and if you can, record yourself and compare yours to Montys and make it as your goal to do it as close as possible to his way.
I keep practising and have so much more to learn and will keep on learning, our horses are our best teachers.
Ronda

my 7 year old mare was doing something similar to your colt when i tried joining up with her. she was showing those same tow signs but would come in. then when we were both exhausted after running around the paddock she would not move or follow me unless we were going back to the feed shed or other horse (which i dont own). problem is i dont know much of her background so i dont know if shes an orphan or just dominant and stubborn. good luck with join up.

Join-Up is not a mechanical tool that can be switched on. You have to accept that sometimes it does not work for us being non professionals. Sometimes the horse will come to you during the "quality time" when you are relaxed and even do not expect it.