As some of you know my boy is challenging to say the least and has had a very crap time of it for most of his life. He has been beaten, starved, left, beaten starved, left....and he is owned by the person who has done this and let this happen. He is 22/25 now and I have had him on a verbal loan for 5 years. We have worked and are working very hard together, we are a team and it terrifies me that his owner could come get him at any time.
She hasn't ridden him for many years as she has been afraid of him. He won't load as they beat him so much before. She has seen him a handful of times overt he 5 years and not recognised him. She has lots of horses that are like hat racks, are lame but she still rides them and let's any one ride them. 3 died last year from not being wormed and were so hungry they poisoned themselves eating acorns.
But the rescue people can't do a thing as they have water and a bit of feed. I tell you this to outline the home that he could go to if they change their minds. If he had to go back to a home which loved him, would understand him and look after him it would tear me apart but he'd be safe. But he won't.
I have tried to buy him many times but it's always a no. They love him. I can't work full time for medical reasons and as most of my money goes on him I don't have funds to offer a major buy. I've offered a couple of hundred but they said no as he was £2000 when he was 4. They are unbelievably stupid.
So, apart from kidnapping him, what can I do? Is there a loop hole somewhere if they have been neglected in their original home? This is always hanging over my head and I don't know what to do. Help!
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This sounds like a legal question, not a horse question. I also don't know were you live. Pretty much here in the States, no court will uphold a “verbal” contract. But it sounds like this horse is on said owner's property and said owner bares all the fiscally cost of the horse. If so, you probably have no legal argument to take possession of the horse. I am surprised that animal control has not done anything. If your story about the other horses are true. If my assumptions are incorrect then add some more info. If there is another property owner like a boarding ranch between you and said owner that you may give small chance. Give us some more detail on where the horse is and who owns the property. We might have some more suggestions for you. Remember, a horses is property. Most legal jurisdictions have laws on abandonment of property. Most boarding ranches have rules that include regular visitation and activity with horses by their owners.
Greg is right, we need more info Widgy - what country you are in particular. Animal Welfare law has changed over recent years in the UK but I don't know about elsewhere.
I'm in the uk and pay for every cost of his up-keep, from normal feed, bedding, tack, to vets bills, dentist, farrier. He isn't on his owners yard and hasn't been for at least 7 years. And she hasn't been to check on him or contact me about him for about a year. She has turned up a couple of times over the past few years, but there are three yards up the same track and she was really visiting another yard. She doesn't even see him, or ask to see him.
I wish I was making it up, our situation and how she treats her horses but it's a horrible truth. My friend has another of her ponies, a cob, who my friend struggles to keep slim! When she first started to loan him you could see every rib and his hips. She is in the same position as me.
I had heard somewhere that if it's proven I, the loaner have paid all the costs for a number of years I have a legal tie, but then others have said that's not the case. It's just if anyone knows for certain or has any other ideas?
The fact that you only have a verbal agreement gives you no rights at all Widgy and she could come and take him back whenever she wants. However, think about it. He is 22/25 you say, you pay all his bills etc. what use is he to the previous owner? If she took him back she would have to do all those things and let's be blunt here, who is going to pay 2k for a 25 yr old horse in the UK in this economy? I'm wondering what is making you fear them claiming him back, has something being indicated? One thing I would suggest, if she comes to see him again I would play down the wonderful achievement and play up the fortune he is costing you hahaha - make him as unattractive as possible to take back (oh and tell them he still won't load!;-)) OK, I am being slightly unethical here and a little tongue in cheek but you get my drift, keep your head down! On a more serious note, I'm not clear why you feel the rescue can't do anything. If they are as thin as you describe and being worked when clearly too injured to work the RSPCA can issue welfare notices and monitor what is going on there with a view to more formal proceedings if she does not comply. By the way, you say he hasn't been on the owners yard for 7 years and he is been with you 5, where was he for the othrt 2?
Hi again, Widgy. You wrote “I'm in the UK and pay for every cost of his up-keep, from normal feed, bedding, tack, to vets bills, dentist, farrier. He isn't on his owners yard and hasn't been for at least 7 years. And she hasn't been to check on him or contact me about him for about a year.” Okay so my questions then: Do you pay the rent? Is there a contract between said owner and the property owner in which the horse resides? Is this property owner some friend/relative of said owner? Also does the UK have strict licensing and registration of horses? If indeed the UK has strict licensing and registration of horses then you taking physical possession of the horse amounts to theft. Like it were an automobile someone lent you for an extended period of time. Which also means the owner must be current on all licensing and registration fees with whatever regulatory body that over sees horses. Also, if no such proof of ownership exists through a regulatory body but the horse is on a friend/relative's property and or said owner pays rent fees, then in those above cases, I would do as Vicci suggest. Although Vicci's suggestion may be in jest or tongue and cheek, I would say it was not an unethical suggestion. Now here are my suggestions baring any new information you can add to the discussion. First to be perfectly legal: If there is no such proof that there is ownership of the horse existing through a regulatory body; said owner has no contract with the property owner and the property owner has no relationship with said owner (including the payment of rent). File a legal, civil claim to take legal possession and establish legal ownership of the horse. I hope you have kept all the rerecords of you baring ALL the fiscal responsibilities for the horse (including rent). If so you would probably win hands down in court. Second and this could or could not be legal. It becomes a “he said-she said” argument over who owns the horse. You could find yourself in court if you do this second suggestion. Again, “If there is no such proof that there is ownership of the horse existing through a regulatory body; said owner has no contract with the property owner and the property has no relationship with said owner (including the payment of rent).” Then work with the property owner in however you see fit to establish your ownership of the horse with the property owner (again this includes paying rent). If the property wants to engage in a contractual agreement at their peril then so be it. Then if you work out a contract with the property owner, you go to whatever regulatory body that exists, get the horse licensed/registered and microchip(also tattoo) the horse as further proof of your ownership.
Hm interesting point on the proving ownership....he was born before passport regs. came in. From 2009 all horses must have a passport. Do you have it/have you seen it? It is possible that if she is unethical enough not to feed her horses she is unethical enough not to have undertaken retrospective passporting which is an offence. HOWEVER, before we get excited about this, consider the following (1) The passport system in the UK is a joke and monitoring is very poor (2) It is also an offence to KEEP a horse (i.e. loan) that does not have a passport. Weighing it all up it would seem to be wise to do nothing for now and deal with the issue if it comes up but this is your situation not mine Widgy so it's easy for me to say but it's you that has the worry.
A point of clarification on my above diatribe. The first part assumes that said owner HAS in possession clear and convincing proof of ownership, like: Bill of Sale; Certification of Live Birth and for the UK as Vicci says, a passport. You could also add video, and photos. But in the lower part with my 2 suggestions. It assumes , said owner DOES NOT have in possession clear and convincing proof of ownership, like the documents or media listed.
Do hope you can resolve this W. As it does sound as if your horse needs you to care off him in his old age.
lots of good info. This week we've had a similar situation with Pye, his old owners have seen how well he is doing and have said they want to sell him, it's been a year now since we had him, In August last year though the owner said I could keep him and she'll give me the passport. The passport never came, but when the vet check Pye out and I told him what happened, he microchipped Pye and registered him a passport in my name.
thankfully I took photos of the text message that told me I could keep Pye and I've reminded her she gave him to us. So far she's not replied to my email.
widgy could you not just keep quiet and carry on caring for him as you have been doing and focus on the care you give him rather than ownership? At least whilst he's on loan to you he's safe and being cared for. With his age, I'm sure they won't be bothered about him.
C
That is awful about Pye Mel. I remember your post telling us they had given him to you. Hopefully the passport in your name will be sufficient. Do hope it goes away for you and the owners acknowledge they gave him to you. Take care. Hope that bruise is healing.
Thanks Maggie, as of yet they've not come back to me from the email I sent.
you know I've been wondering how much horses understand of the words we use. I thought the other day I'd tell Pye what his previous owners had said, so I explained to him that they wanted to sell him, his ears went back, then I carried on saying I'm not going to let that happen as 'you're my boy', his ears came forward. I then gave him a big hug, which he's only recently let me do, and he returned it.
The next day I was talking to the lady in the next field and Pye came and stood right next to me for about 5 mins whilst we chatted. he's never done that before :D so I wonder really how much of our language do they understand.
He maybe picking up on your concern. You have made amazing progress with him. Fingers crossed that he stays yours for life.
Just a warning to everyone. Never accept a verbal offer of ownership always get it in wring signed and dated preferably also witnessed by a third party. I have heard stories like Mel's and W. Just too often.
Bless Pye! I think they do understand us sometimes, probably far more than we think! That is my worst nightmare I'm so sorry your going through it. Regarding the legal side of things, thank you for the info. I do pay the rent and have done for the past 2 and a half years. The people who own my yard who I've been with for the past year and a half ( the previous yard was across the track and again wasn't his original owners yard.) and I'm sure they could write up a contract and post- date receipts for me. And regarding his passport, she was going to give it to me so the vet could add vaccination details etc, but it never materialised and who knows if he does have one or not, it's hard to get a straight answer!
As the the keeping quiet I am certainly keeping my head down. It's hard sometimes as I was to post photos and say how well he's doing, but I can't in case she sees. I know that he's age and his reputation are in my favour, and I think she would leave me a lone, except for her family who I think just to prove a point would just take him, wether they would want him or not. They are those kind of people. In her daughters word " over my dead body is Jess (that's me btw) ever having woody." Nice huh? Coming from people who could treat him like they have.
Hopefully it won't come to anything but I want to say a massive thank you for the advice and support on here. And Mel, I really hope that woman honours her giving Pye to you. Keep us posted on how that goes x
Wring = writing
Just thought I would share the amazing news that for some miraculous reason, woody's owner decided to sell him to me yesterday! Got her to sign a purchase agreement with the promise of his passport in the next few days ( I do feel a bit dodgy not having it now but am too happy!)
Thank you all again for your words of wisdom on this. I still can't believe it! Yay!!!!!
Result, you must be soo happy & relieved!
Aww, I am thrilled for you, all is well and he is safe with you now. enjoy!!
Ooh! That is such good news! Do hope the passport arrives.
Jess fantastic news, don't wait too long if the passport doesn't turn up. Just contact your vet and see if he's microchipped and get passport in your name, just show the vet the agreement and they'll be happy to do that for you!!!!
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Thankfully after a very detailed letter, including my fees for training a remedial horse for the last year, to Pye's previous owners I've not heard back from them. Hope it stays that way.
It's had a good effect on Pye, so I wonder if I was without thinking letting that thought in the back of my mind affect what I did with Pye, when I told him he's mine I must have given off the right signal that he's staying with us for good. He's been approaching me more and I've let him groom me, after I've started to groom him first being lead mare ;-) It's like a weight has been taken off both of our minds.
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Lets hope all the good news carries on through the Uni, think we all deserve some as do our horses!!
x
That's great Mel I hope Pye's previous owners stay out of the scene! Not only do they need us we sure as he'll need them too! I've always wondered what would happen if I got woods to load and went to a show.......he loves jumping so maybe x country.........eventually....maybe..if I grow those kinda balls! Lol he's passport I now have( my loving boyfriend stalked her to get it haha!) which is great and also I have found out he's 19 not over 20! Whohoo!
Hi. Having had ownership issues in the past can I point out that, if you read your horses passport it states it is NOT proof of ownership. You need a receipt, preferably witnessed by a third party. God forbid that anyone should ever need this but if you are in Britain, John Armstrong is an equine solicitor. His phone number is 01899 220058. He gave me very sound advice which helped me resolve a situation where a potential buyer paid a deposit, removed the horse without my permission & refused to entertain paying the balance. In addition she failed to provide regular, appropriate farrier care. Possession is 9/10s of the law in Britain. She stole him from me - and left him in an unlocked field. I simply took him back. It got quite nasty and once her partner had threatened physical violence to me the police became interested whereas when the horse was taken they regarded it as a civil matter. I should say this is in Scotland so it may vary in England or Wales. Suffice to say I am made of stern stuff & I found the horse a good owner eventually.
It does say she has a purchase agreement Jo, but you are right to point out that a passport is not proof of ownership. Good contact info, thanks.