Hi! I just got my first horses and am fumbling along with join up and groundwork. One of my geldings is overweight and I can understand that he doesn't want to move much, but when I put him in the round pen to try and do join up he just won't move. I send him away and he just stands there. I throw the rope out to him, even lightly touching his hindquarters and he just stands there. I hit my shoulders with the rope, kick dirt, I'm squared up on him and he just stands there. How do I get him to move? Not only do I want to join up with him but he also needs the exercise!
Any suggestions?
Go to 'Horse behaviour and training' and find the 'getting forward motion' post. This was while riding the horse but you might be able to rig up a giddyup rope onto a long pole. I had the exact problem this week with my daughters pony who would only walk around. Sometimes a plastic bag on a stick works fine but it didn't with this one. I'm going to try 'giddyup rope on a stick'....
Thanks Kazza... appreciated.
An umbrella? Firecrackers? Carrot on a stick?
Funny to read. Good luck. If you figure out something that doesn't entail beating him silly, please let us know!
O THANK GOODNESS! i thought i was the only one with this problem, i tried join-up with a 29inch miniture horse yesterday, that would not leave me, no matter what i did to make him go away, i assumed i was doing something wrong, although i have done join-up a few times, i have never dealt with a pony that dosen't have "the flight instinct" so any help with this would be good, on the other hand i did then do join-up with a 16 hh and it went like clockwork, please any suggestions are very welcome
karen and co
Dear Karen & Co
A couple of things spring to mind re your minature horse. Firstly, join up is about establishing trust between horse and man. Sounds like your miniature is perfectly trusting already so I can't see a need to join up. Secondly, not all horses are suitable to do join up. One kind of horse that is not suitable are those that have been over handled as a foal. I wonder if your miniature was over handled? These little chaps quite often are. I hope that helps.
My horse did the same thing--she just looked at me like I was nuts! I was beginning to think she hadn't a clue what she was to do in a round pen (of course it was me as I had very lttle experience). But then my friend said to try to twirl the end of the rope at her hind quarters--lightly tap her if needed. That worked--it got her moving and kept her moving--slowly. THen we watched my friends horse in the the round pen--Tia (my horse) watched as well and the next day, she went rigth to moving--a little faster. Now I can't get her to change directions. But I am still working on that--but I would like to know, does it matter if she does not change directions?
My horse was a bit like that and move not move forward to do the process of join up. I learned that if I back and use the lunge whip to whip the ground hard AFTER I have given her the chance to go with the more subtle cues, she'd go forward. I started adding the extra component of pointing to the direction I wanted her to move BEFORE I'd whip the ground and before long and certainly in ONE session, I was able to achieve that. At this point, when join up or just lunging, I can point to the direction and she trots or walks or canters depending on the voice command. Hope this helps. Remember you are NOT hitting the horse, only the ground to make the loud noise to get her moving. Do the whole 12, 3, 6, 9 oclock introduction like Monty states and you try what he says BEFORE you get to my recommendation.
Hi I have been gaining some join up experience with other horses and have had great responses but have just had a similar problem with a shetland pony, he thinks he is in charge and is not beyond pulling, barging, kicking and flying past his owner in the field and biting - in joinup situ he moved to begin with then said enough of this and stopped at which point nothing would move him - slapping rope on shoulders, twirling rope, loud noise, arm waving, cracking whip on ground as owner suggested - just sullen glares and then when I walked off he went for me - think he has been over mollicoddled, just wondered if any one has had similar experience and found a solution yet - didn't try plastic bags so perhpas give that a go, I recon ground work on a dually a good idea but not sue he wont have a go at me as asking him to do stuff he doesn't feel like doing looks like it results in kicks and bites, although the rest of the time he seems to be an amiable nice fellow - any suggestions or others experience appreciated
I think these horses are desensitized. They have been confronted with much stronger stimuli like whips, maybe pain. I realized in one of the horses I am working with that the only sign to get him to canter was the sound of the wip (without touching him). I am trying now to get him back to less intense stimuli.
My horse has the same problem. i can have a carrot stick,lunge line. she just wont budge...atleast i know im not the only one with the problem! Ha.
Maybe another idea may help. If you start with a sign of 10 %, then go to 20, 30 and so on, you will desentisize your horse. If you leave him calm and give immediatly 100% (e.g. plastic bags)it may work, giving attention to go back to minor stimuli as soon as possible. The horse should learn: if I don't react to 20% will follow the 100%.
Don't forget the all important praise and immediate interruption of the stimuli once the horse as much as thinks in the right direction.
If they never understand what is asked of them, or that life gets decidedly nicer and easier when they do this thing, they are likely to phase you out.
Keep the training down to smallest amount of time possible at the beginning and give lots of praise (=end of lesson) as soon as you get a positive response.
I have had the same problem to with a young shetland. I have tried everything to get him to move but he just looked at me like I was stupid then started eating the snow. Happy I'm not the only one with this problem.
My thought is that not every horse has the same pressure-zone.
There are three zones: awareness zone, decision zone and pressure zone.
-When you come into the first, the horse takes notice of you.
-When you come into the second he decides to flee or not.
-When you come into the third he freezes and would go "into pressure".
If you drive the horse away and come too close, he'd be standing still instead of run away from you.
Try to keep more distance, maybe his pressure zone starts further away from his body.
At least it's worth a try!
Someone said it earlier: Join up is about building trust. If he doesnt need that with you then do some other ground work to get him exercising. This is where it would be appropriate to use other stimuli or maybe he would like a big red ball? Maybe even take him on a long walk on a lead line. Is there another horse that would allow him to be ponied so he can get some good exercise over 4-5 miles a day?
Someone said it earlier: Join up is about building trust. If he doesnt need that with you then do some other ground work to get him exercising. This is where it would be appropriate to use other stimuli or maybe he would like a big red ball? Maybe even take him on a long walk on a lead line. Is there another horse that would allow him to be ponied so he can get some good exercise over 4-5 miles a day?
Wow! This is the exact problem I had with my shetland. I tried everything and it failed twice and I only made my poor little shetland wary of me and less trusting. I am convinced that if a horse is already so trusting and so joined up that it want move away from us then it doesn't need join up. In continually attempting to achieve join up we will only lose some of that preciuos trust. I will not try join up again with my shetland but now lunge him regularly and do ground work with him. Unfortunately I haven't been able to purchase a dually that will fit him - the red one was far too big. I have now ordered small rope halter for him. Great discussion here and all relevant to my Forum question "Join up with a Shetland?"
This is very true, why send away a horse that already wants to be near you.
My question now is: WILL THE HORSE FOLLOW YOU NOW, WHEREVER YOU GO?.
If not you will still need to do join up but remember do not do it too much. Monty tells you there is no sence in this, to over do it.
Also, check your horse's feed, how much and what kind. If it is overweight, good clean pasture is all it will need until it looses some weight.
Then you can gradually start to feed it Fat & Fiber, good for energy but will not put on the pounds. Another thing you can introduce is an equine block, for vitamins.
If you can put a halter on the horse, walk him, long walks will get him moving.
When you tire out get friends or family to help. He'll loose weight and have more energy and want to move for you.
Hope this helps,
Ronda
Ok, My girlfriend bought two horses, brothers (6 and 5) who we were told were green broke; ridable but in need of a litte more work. At the advice of a close friend who trained horses for years using Monty's methods, I signed up here and we began to try to join up... Her horse did fantasitc and now follows her all over the pens. However, My horse doesn't move. Not at all, no matter what kind of stimuli or lack thereof is used. I try to send him out (tried several distances) and he stands there and looks around. I toss the line, he stands there looking around... I got a long handled whip kind of thing, and even with the whistle or crack: he stands there looking around... Even with his brother in the pen (who seems to love to run) he mostly stands there and looks around. We've saddled them up and bridled them (he fights the bit horribly too but that's a concern for later) got on and unless he's led by someone, stands there and looks around. I've watched Monty's videos on join up so many times I've dreamed them! but nothing phases this horse.... and unless I have the grain bucket he doesn't follow me anywhere unless I tug him along.
Colin your horse sounds like an interesting case. Do you know how he has been treated in the past? I think Rudi may have the clue that he is just desentizised which can be caused by either extremes of prolonged traditional cruel breaking methods or over indulgence by his previous owner or desentzising as for police horses so that he is not scared of anything. The fact that he does not wish to take the bit perhaps suggests the first of these three. Do you have a dually halter for him. If so I would just concentrate on basic groundwork with that so that he will follow, back up etc. Join up may not be necessary if you can gain his trust and co-operation via the dually. Just one last thought - does he canter freely and look lively when he is let free?? If not it may be worth getting him checked out re possible past injuries that are restricting his movements.
Just another thought, Colin. Has he been wormed latley? Parasites can make them very lethargic too.
Really interesting forum thread. I too have had a very similar situation. I have two geldings, one a TB that I bred and broke in myself (so I know what his past experiences have been like) and the other, a Paint horse that had been used as a competitive roping horse. His previous owner, a professional rodeo rider wouldn’t have put up with any nonsense and sold him as he was too lazy to be a top roping horse. The first time I tried join up with the TB, it was like he had been watching the Monty videos himself, however, the little Paint horse thought it was the silliest idea ever. He would willingly follow you around anywhere in the pen, even though he is quite the Alpha horse, so when I sent him away he just stood there looking quizzical, and I did everything that you are meant to .. the only one doing any work was me. So I ended that session. The next time, he just got very irritated and turned his not inconsiderable arse to me and tried to kick me (or the lunge line.) So for the third attempt a couple of weeks later, I long reined him first around the round yard for around 10 mins, so I had control of him and could turn him and work him around the pen. So he got the idea he was meant to go around the pen. I then took the gear off and sent him off… and like others have mentioned, cracked the lunge whip a couple of times (even though I was pretty sure Monty would be most disapproving) never whipping or touching him with it of course. I wouldn’t say that it was a perfect join up, but it was 1000% on previous attempts. That was last weekend, and I'll give it another go this coming one. So, to cut a long story short, I think that a lot of what other people have said seems to resonate - the lazy (overweight) horse disinclined to move; a horse who has probably had reasonably strong stimuli in the past and one who is very confident in his own skin. Don’t know, if any of this helps anyone else, but give the long lining a try. I would be interested to know what Monty thinks about this.
Hi
first of all I want to say that agree with “KatieBigWhiteDuck “, why to join up, if you have the horses trust.
But my question! Is it trust if a horse does not move away from you, or maybe he just doesn't consider you. In this case one is confusing “trust” with “lack of respect”. “Promise nothing you cannot keep”. The horse feels that it won't have any consequences. This makes you weak and is counterproductive for the relationship.
Every horse has his individual urge for movement. In the join up examples the new and strange surroundings and the unknown person in the center is a motivation for the horses to move. They are looking for comfort.
There is little motivation to move in a known surrounding, with a full stomach and a familiar person on the side, not representing any danger. No reason escaping or to look for food or water. In the horses head are many ???????????????.
Try to put the horse to a test. Put a container with food ( maybe a carrot) to the middle of the round pen ( not in your pocket!). The food motivates the horse to move. You claim the food for yourself and send the horse away with all determination!!!!! If it can be hardly sent away there, too, the respect is missing. If it tries to chase you, the horse claims the respect for itself. If you can send it away, let it go for a couple of rounds. His attention will focus on the center. Than change then direction.
Then let the horse come to you. Important! It should not reach the food. Let him stop some meters in front of you. Only if it stands eased and doesn't turn the attention towards the food, he may eat.
The food should not come from your hand!!!
This is only a suggestion. It is worth trying it out.
I can see the good point in cristina's suggestion, and I think it might be an excellent training session for a horse that has begun to learn respect for personal space.
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That said, I think I would hesitate to bring food into an equation where the horse already is hard to move away.
With food on the line, it seems to me the horse would be even less interested in the moving away part, and while lots of determination is the right way to go, I'm afraid a situation where you claim food from a possibly disrespectful horse, it could easily slip into aggressive body language from both parties.
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Have you tried to just lead him in the Dually in all kinds of patterns and established who decides where he should be at all times? Regardless of where you want him; by your shoulder, slightly behind you, standing still in a given spot, backing up, moving/stopping when you move/stop. (And no snacking during walks!) ;)
This can be trained anywhere, so you don't have to make the arena a "boring" place for your horse.
If a horse or man sends a horse away, it always includes aggressive body language. If I have to feed my horse and it pushes me away in a disrespectful manner, then there will follow an immediate aggressive determined but fair reaction from my side, like every other horse would do. If I was afraid, the horse could blame me for it and would feel my doubts, it would turn the table. Horses notice very fast how honorable the intentions are. The intention of the whole is to give a meaning to the exercise of sending away. It would be easier to put the horse on the edge of the round pen and to keep it on distance of the center. The described horses don't seem to me to be aggressive, rather sluggish. My own horse was very rough if there was food. I have send him away and claimed the food for myself and let it eat only when there were no more signals of aggression (Ear position, nostrils, breathing etc.). He waits patiently for the food since then. Also I prefer going for a walk to the boring ares. All three go on foot, me, the thorough-bred and the little donkey. This is far more interesting and more instructive. Usually they are completely free and follow voluntarily.
Cristina,
I agree 100% !!! My horse has to wait until I give her permission to eat everytime.
This way I know she has good ground manners and respects me.
For sending them off, there are so meny reasons they are not moving.
A horse being overweight is not a health horse. They will have major health problems as they age. The perfect weight for any horse is to be able to feel their ribs but not see them. Lots of muscle!!!
my horse started off with her ears back and walking away from me when i tried join up again, but as soon as i raised the lunge line getting ready to throw it, she just stopped and wouldnt move. even when i tried snapping my eyes on hers, flapping my arms squaring up to her moving towards her and let the lunge fall over her butt she just stood still and refused to move.