So I am trying this round pen join up for the first time. Now, when I try to turn her I get head tossing, stomping almost a buck, actually she's bucked when asked to turn. She also doesn't seem all that interested in moving quickly around the pen. When I try to drive her, she tosses her head and sometimes even runs through the middle of the round pen. I'm not afraid of her though, I don't think she intends harm at all. At the end of the first session, I did get an almost 100% join up at the end, she turned took a step towards me and waited almost touched me. This is an achievement because I know she was taught to wait to be caught. Her training did not allow her to approach the center of the arena or the rider. They did this to avoid any potential injuries to judges if she lost her rider during a show or the reins fell. She was taught to stay put until caught which she does excellently. My question, since I sense her frustration at being asked to turn or at being asked to move at all: What's with the head tossing, stomping, rushing pounding of the hoofs on the ground. No flared nostrils, no charging me, just that very clear, I don't like this Im pissed off right now? Thanks
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PS She's a Paso Fino
Given past training this could be very hard for her. Why are you attempting join up. Is it just for your own gratification and experience or do do you really need to do join up with her because she is misbehaving, not responsive to you and/or being difficult to handle?
Well, it would appear to me that join up is Monty's whole point. She doesn't misbehave actually, and she does either wait or join. Gratification? No, I get that from sitting in the barn with her or allowing her to rest her head on my shoulder. What I do want is better ground manners. I'm more curious why this new thing, head tossing.... It seems directly related to the round pen, maybe she is indeed alpha and is fighting it. I understood join up was partnering and thus having an improved relationship with my horse.
Is this the same horse you describe in the other thread that went like a bat out of hell in the round pen?
If so, my question is; has something bad happened to her in a round pen before you took her on?
Also thinking, if she has been taught to stay put, meybe she is completely confused by your driving her around?
Hi. Join up redefines your hierarchy, puts the human in the alpha position. Perhaps using a light pole with plastic bags attached would emphasise your place in the round pen. Remember, in the herd the language is backed up with teeth & feet. Join up is an invitation to embark on a journey of trust. However, it is also an invasion of space. Effectively, it is taking control of the situation so it is to be expected that some horses will be willing to test the resolve of Join up. Use the Uni to improve your communication - you have no accreditations yet! I have found the videos & notes very informative & entertaining, not to mention mind blowingly eye opening! I have a herd of 5 & my 18 month old colt is an inspiration. He comes to the human to see what new thing you have bought for him to explore. His 4 month old sister also hurries to see what's on the menu today. You try hammering in rusty 5 inch nails when you have interested heads over each shoulder & baby lips grabbing at your claw hammer!!! Cheers, Jo.
Im a bit confused; is this the horse you are talking about that you have worked so hard with for three years to turn around? If so, what on earth are you doing Join Up for?! It seems you already have a bond with her. Head tossing can be an indication of frustration and irritation and she may be telling you that she's irritated with the whole process and doesn't understand what it's about.
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Improving ground manners is of course a good thing but I suggest this is done with the Dually following the relevant lessons, being very consistent and doing the good stuff you already appear to be doing.
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Join Up is not "Monty's whole point" it is the beginning of a non violent relationship that uses a form of communication as near as possible to the horses own to establish trust and establish the human as a TEMPORARY leader. It asks the horse to co-operate with us and see us as the place of leadership and security (this is what 'alpha' means - a hugely misused term that the dog training world in particular has corrupted dreadfully). While we are attempting to use their language and they graciously accept this, they do know that we are not horses! ;-) This is why I say 'temporary' - when they return to the field/herd they can continue with their own herd arrangements.
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if you already have a horse that comes to you, wants to be with you, accepts you, spends time with her"head on your shoulder" you already have Join Up; enjoy it and go from there.
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If we are talking about a different horse please ignore everything and I will start again hahaha
Quite, your horse has already joined up with you & shows you trust, so by sending her away, you are rejecting her now, thats why she's wanting to come into the middle to you & the head tossing etc is telling you she is annoyed as this seems to be unjust to her as she's not done anything to deserve being sent away.
You say you didn't get join up, but you did, she turned in & stepped towards you, that my friend is a join up.
You are confusing her if she's been trained to stand still & not approach.
Watch the groundwork lessons & move on.
Totally agree with Vicci. From what you have said your mare is already joined up to you. What you need to do now is concentrate on ground manners with the dually and enjoy the good relationship you have.
Dear all, I´d love to share a few thoughts with all of You. Being an instructor, we are sometimes very lucky that some or our school horses keeps finding "the teaching of Join-Up" fun to do so to speak. Also our head instructor Maya Horsey have a lovely horse called Trigger and I believe he has done more than 1000 join-up´s with people. We had an ex racehorse here at the farm, taking his position as a teacher to the limit were I could not be in the round pen with the student - he would then stop and sigh, and wait for me to get out of there :) He new what to do and was a treat to see working with students. We also have a arabian gelding who would just not do another Join-Up with his owner, he has his relationship on a completely different level way beyond the trust buildning ;), yet, he will come to the fence every time we have a demo/clninc och course, and wants to take on the students. I would like to ask all of you if you ever considered thinking about being partners and have 50/50 of the relationship? This I find very helpful when explaining to horse owners that are looking for "better ground manners" or "just wants to try and see if it works". You see, Join-Up has nothing to do with horse related problems, difficulties in any way nor bad behavior or young/old, mare/gelding or training for that matter. It is about saying, I can move you, I am listening to you, I hear you, I see you, you are welcome to be close, I am to trust, trust me and I will keep you safe. It might be that you feel, as a human being, that it is important to "own" more than 50% in a relationship. Yet I dare to ask the question; Are you Sure about that? After 12 years with Monty and 47 years with "myself" I know that I have to trust the horse before I ask him to trust me. I also know, that Join-Up has nothing to do about how the horse has behaved before, yesterday or an hour ago. Join-Up is the process of "finding each other", hearing each other and building trust. What ever happens after the Join-Up is up to us. You see, after a Join-Up you have stated who you are in the relationship. That means that the horse will think he can ask you anything, and you will give an answer. Above that, it is the horses language and after all, we are the ones restraining them with a halter and lead line. So, imagine you have a flowing 50/50 points each - you loose a few points when your timing is bad, the horse will notice! Then you smile and do better next time. Because you lost a few points, the horse might change his attitude and not ask, but tell how things should be. Then you need to match up to the road the horse are, gently, remember you were the one loosing because of bad timing, and get your points back in a nice way. Then you are "in the process of Join-Up" and you stay true to the contract you have with your horse. So, go out for a day or two and see if you can feel and see when the points between the two of you flows back and forth - I guarantee You will have a lot of fun, and your horse will find it very amusing! Tossing head, "taking the center" etc is a horse trying to tell something and he/she speaks with BIG LETTERS. And remember - thanks to the magic Join-Up, you have started a journey were the horse knows he can Ask a Question and he knows You will Answer! KEEP ON EQUUS ALL Love from sunny Sweden! CI Ann Lindberg
Thanks so much for your comments Anne. Does this mean that we should try join up with all our horses even if we do have a good relationship with them already?
Maggie I don't think that's what Ann is saying (Correct me if I'm wrong Ann) - she is saying that each horse has its own 'way' and it is about the relationship and communication. If the horse is talking we should listen. If the horse does not want to do "silly Join Up" (because there is no need)then we have to listen. Equally, our horses can agree to do many Join Ups with many people as it's about trusting and having a conversation with each new person but he may not want to do it again with us as we have already had that chat!
Great discussion! Yes indeed, they are all so different & as Ann says, it should be a 50/50 relationship, thats what i aim for!
Lets face it, none of us like being dictated to do we?????? I don't that's for sure, if someone works with me & asks nicely, I'm much more likely to say yes sure I'll do it for you, but when they say "you will" I say "I won't!!".
We're supposed to be learning Equus, that means we have to listen to what the horse is telling us, not that we are to be the big boss all the time.
Super comment Ann, thanks.
My Ebony just loves to do join up with you, but Libby, who was challenging at the start, finds it a little worrying, however, I did a join up with her before long reining yesterday & I got her going a lot more forward on the long lines after.