Pauline;

Savez vous que vous pouvez contacter, M. Adrien Maby? Il est en France et bien sur donne des instructions de "Join Up" en francais. Il vit en Bretagne, donc vous pouvez lui telephoner: +33 (0)6 77 76 52 89 ou +33 (0)4 68 33 86 53. Couriel: contact@am-equineconcept.co siteweb: http://www.am-equineconcept.com/

Si je ne me trompe pas, vous trouverez peut-etre plus facile d'en discuter en francais avec lui?

Bonne chance, je m'excuse, mon clavier n'a pas les accents...: )

Paul

Paul, you never fail to amaze me hahaha, now in French!

Hi Vicci. My first language is french....lol. I will send you Tesio's goodies on Monday or Tuesday ok?

Have a great weekend....we are looking forward to 45 centimeters of snow tonight...

Cheers,

Paul

Judging by what I have read here (and sorry if I repeat Paul here but I am far from having much language skills) but it would seem to me that you did achieve Join-Up. As to the respect issues on the ground, I literally have the exact same issues with my horse. It has improved as I have schooled him in leading with a Dually. I would suggest trying this.

Dear Pauline
You can not expect that your first trial of Join-Up will go perfectly well. When we watch the videos with Monty everything seems easy, but it may be very difficult without experience. Your horse seems to be not an easy one. If you have no trainer who could show you the technique, as proposed above, you could try to work first with an easier horse.
Rudi

Ditto to Rudi! In the your case, Pauline, you did all the correct things to begin with however your horse does sound as if he has been a bit mistreated somewhat by humans in the past and therefore becomes scared easily if they appear to be preditators. In cases like this your signals need to be very low key. Less eye contact and slower hand movements than Monty uses. When you initially went to send him off he was a little confused as you were not direct enough but then perhaps you over geared and he took fright. The area you are using sounds perfect so next time you try do exactly as you did this time but when you ask him to go keep it low key - if he doesn't react then increase the pressure on him with you eyes and lead rope but don't over do it , if he takes off in gallop let him go and try not to be too perturbed just stand relatively still in the middle of the area until you wish him to turn and then move out like Monty does to turn him but keep it slow and as calm as you can. Once he has turned again let him go but don't force him on at all just stand relatively still with hands by your side and just your eyes on him asking him to keep going until he slows down and starts showing you the signs. When you are ready and he has shown you most of the signs then drop your eyes and turn you shoulder towards him and walk away from him as Monty does - I am sure he will start to follow you and join up. Good luck with it!

Hi Pauline, I just wanted to say something about your pen. You see, I also don't have round pen and I have to work in dressage pen (20x40m) and that is difficult! Horse gallops far more faster than I can run after him so he stops in the corners until I come closer to him. I suggest you (at least that's what I did) to make it 20x20m pen! I put electric fence (that white thing with wire in it) across the middle of the pen and it workwd for me, luckily, horse didn't jump over it. Perhaps, I will put fences to support electric tape so the horse wouldn't jump over it.
Good luck, stay safe

HI EVERYONE !
Thank you for your answers !

Paul, merci beaucoup, je garde ça en tête mais vu qu'il y a un super forum avec de super internautes dessus sur le site de Monty, et que je n'ai aucun pb pour comprendre l'anglais, it's a piece of cake for me ! :-)

Maggie, thanks for the help, I will try again with that in mind !
THe horse has not been abused, but he did react violently. He has been owned by the same nice lady since he's 4 or 5 (he's now 12) and even went to the Haras de la Cense where Andy Booth is applying similar technics than Monty. But as much as he is calm in EVERY situation when ridden, there is a pb when I'm next to him by foot ! I asked the lady who takes care of him (I'm riding him 4 times a week but he's not owned by me ) and she said that at the Haras de la Cense, he was sick of round pen exercises very soon. He understood all the 7 "games" developed by Andy Booth very quickly and was very soon "bored" by them. So I think he's a very smart boy !!

Mustang.girl, thank you for the advice but I dont have the material for this and given the horse reaction, I prefer not to try this for now. I'm sure he would jump !!

The Lost Soul, I think I didn't achieve join up. Yes, he did came back but the whole thing was chaotic and when he came back, he was ready to gallop more (but I had sugar in my pocket so I didn't take chances, I showed him the sugar when he came a little bit closer!)

Thanks for the advice and I'll let you know when I try again!
Maybe I should try to do it after riding him, so that he would not feel that much urge to gallop everywhere !! WHat do you think ?

Please don't hesitate to give me some more advice !! :)

Pauline

Hi Pauline, can I ask; when you asked him to change direction, did he turn inwards i.e. looking at you and then run the other way or did he turn away from you? Bear with me, I'm reading your posts very carefully and trying to unravel it as I suspect there is some confusion here. :-)

Oh and sorry, forgot to ask, can you give me some links to Andy Booth and his work please so I can see what methods he will have used. Thanks

I think he turned inward and looked at me while running to the other direction. It wasn't easy make him turn. What does it mean ?
Here are some links: http://www.andybooth.fr/en/accueil-3/ or http://www.equinetourismcommunity.com/index.php?/topic/156-andy-booth/ or http://www.lacense.com/education/htdocs/

Best.
Pauline

Thanks Pauline. I see Andy trained with Pat Parelli - this is what I needed to find out, I had a feeling the horse had been trained "Parelli" style by your description of his behaviour - now this is not a criticism but it is important in terms of understanding why your horse is behaving as he is and why things are muddled. So here goes! I'm sorry if it's long but I do think it's needed.

1. Parelli training teaches horses to work in circles on a 12 ft, then a 22 foot line and then freely (no line) but they stay within the 'boundary' because it has become a conditioned response. It also teaches horses to keep running until told to stop. For example, watch trainers as the horse runs in a circle AROUND the trainer, the trainer, as the horse learns more, does not move. If the horse slows when running behind the trainer, the trainer will quickly send him on. To stop the horse, they direct their attention to the hindquarters, ask the horse to disengage and stop square on to the trainer, the trainer may then send the horse in the other direction.

2. Parelli training teaches horses to turn INWARDS i.e. diengage hindquarters and fix both eyes on human in front. This is because Parelli teaches that the horse must give you its complete attention by being straight in front (not sideways on) and foucsed on you. Join Up in Montys way teaches the horse to turn OUTWARDS i.e. the trainer 'blocks' the flight path and drives the horse to turn AWAY from the trainer and run the other way. Two reasons for this (1) It gives the horse a moment to experience the trainer being in a 'blind spot' and (2) It prepares the horse for longlining (Parelli turns do not help longlinging - self explanatory as the horse turns the wrong way so longlining has to be taught from the beginning in effect). This explains why he found it difficult to turn as he is totally confused between what you are asking and his past training.

3. He is reacting violently to, as the previous owner stated, being fed up with all this chasing around and doing the "games" - good trainers know when to quit - when a horse knows how to do something why keep nagging away at it! I suspect your horse dipslays a lot of anger/tail swishing etc. even may buck or kick out. I worked with one in exactly the same position who did the most beautiful displays of "airs above the ground" in sheer temper at being asked to do all this yet again!

So, that explains (hopefully!) why he is behaving like this, and yes, he is very smart by the sound of it, so some suggestions on how to work with him.

1. Forget the Join Up in its pure sense. Start by getting a Dually halter on him and teaching him to respect your space. He must never be allowed near enough to bite you and PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get rid of the sugar lumps!! Sugar is bad for horses and feeding him such things will encourage him to bite and come close to you for the wrong reasons.

2. Be extremely calm around him at all times (I have learnt this from the one I worked with!) No matter what the temper tantrum is about let him get it out of his system (keeping yourself safe of course and using a long line) and he will then question why he is getting upset when noone else is. When he is calm, carry on as if nothing has happened doing whatever it is you want to do.

3. When the space issue has been dealt with, go back to basics, lots of leading work, in and out of various poles, backing up using the dually - NOT the waving the line parelli style.

Overall, I suggest that you stop using any of the 'games'/parelli bits that he clearly is irritated with, not because I am against the method (before anyone gets upset!) but because the horse has clearly had enough of it and needs a new way of working with you that is based on the RELATIONSHIP between you i.e. one of trust, calm, and quiet handling. I think then he will reward you beyond your wildest dreams.

I don't know how long you have owned him but a horse like this has probably a keen intelligence and strong personality, however once you earn their trust and work them in a different way they are phenomenal - the one I mentioned is incredible and her character has changed and she will do anything I ask of her with grace and patience. Get to know every little bit of his personality, test everything out carefully and see how he responds. Take all the time in the world - you need to work with his mind and psychology.

If this makes no sense or you (or anyones else) thinks I am talking rubbish please say so, I won't be offended!! :-)

Wow! Viccihh this is fantastic - you have given us all such a clear understanding of this problem and I have learnt more of Pat Parelli's training than I gained from the Pat Parelli clinic I attended. Sounds so sensible Pauline so hopefully you now have something that will really help you. Thanks Viccihh for taking the time to give us this explanation.

viccihh1, I have yet to see you talk rubbish about any issue. And I too have gained much insight into this Parelli training. Some of these other "trainers" or "horse whisperers" (I hope nobody is offended; its not supposed to be!!) are rather mysterious about their training methods, so it is nice to gain some insight into what others think is acceptable.

Thank you so much for this great explanation, Viccihh.

It makes a lot of sense !! I have been riding Nuage for 4 months now and he is owned by a friend of mine. I go to see him 4 times a week so I spend a lot of time with him. I've asked my friend about his training and character and she told me that he went to the Haras de la Cense, where they teach the Parelli method, when he was 5 or so. He's now 11. She also told me he got fed up of the round pen exercices so that the trainer stopped doing them very quickly not to annoy the horse anymore with that. Out of 30 days of training, he rode Nuage 15 days with a simple halter, which explains the great character of the horse while ridden. I feel that anything could happen and Nuage would not move an ear. That is a great feeling given that I used to ride horses that would try to make me fall (Not without reasons I'm sure but still.. it's scary) or the last horse I rode: he would rear up and we fell together and he was kind of traumatized and would not bear to have another horse coming towards him .. and other "funny" reactions like this one. I finally got very scared of the horse, and I was myself in a bad disposition of mind so I stopped riding for a while to get more confidence in myself and get some maturity. Now I feel I'm ready to build a sane and strong relationship with the new horse I'm riding, Nuage. But know that I have a very "cold blooded" temper, it takes a lot to make me lose my temper and I've learnt to remain calm no matter what ! :-)
I do have a question about sugar lumps, is that really so bad? Usually, I just give him one sugar lump after putting his briddle on, in part to reward him for taking the bit so easily, in part to make him start relaxing his mouth (start chewing and foaming from the mouth). Is that bad?
But I must admit that these past few days, I bought a big jar of lump and tend to give him sugar to reward him immediately after work and just before I leave him for the day.
Are any treats acceptable? I just bought him 10 kilos of carrots so ... !
I try to feed him as much as I can (giving him 10 small carrots each day I come + 3/4 sugars or more) because he's very skinny. I asked his owner and the teacher about that and both explained to me that Nuage is always in this skinny bad shape during winter and they tried everything. You can see his ribs and hips clearly and he won't take an ounce of muscle... which makes me kind of desperate since I'm doing dressage and more muscle would make all the exercices easier for him (and myself, incidentally). He also develops skins problem on his bad especially. I put some special cream on that but this is part of a deteriorating process which seems to happen every winter. So about his weight, I try to feed him a little bit more even though he has a large portion of food + hay (but he's on a straw litter but on "shavings".
I must specify that Nuage used to be a CCE (eventing) horse, doing three day events (dressage - show jumping and cross country) so it's in his nature to be thin. However, I learned yesterday that his owner forgot to give him his vermifuge (his anti-worm treatment) for more than 5 months (it's supposed to be given to him every 4 months).. so that mustn't have helped the horse.
Anyway, I bought the dually online so I should receive it soon and will be able to start working with Nuage with the halter and apply all your advice, for which I'm very grateful !!

Hi Pauline

Glad its useful (and thankyou Maggie and Soul for your kind comments). I'm sorry, this is another long explanation!

Re: sugar. 2 things. (1) Sugar (especially in this lump form) is absolute pure carbohydrate: the pancreas produces extra insulin in order to deal with any sudden sugar intake (I appreciate you are only talking about small doses but I'm just giving an overview of how it works). Any calorie benefit is burned up very quickly so bascially the metablism of horses being fed too much sugar generally is distorted (hence problems with laminitis/founder, various insulin/metabolic related conditions. While you may think he is not getting much sugar, he is getting it in its pure form, I supect in his hard feed (for instance anything with the word "Molli" attached to it means sugar! and certainly in carrots (Monty has talked about some research related to carrot intake but I can't find it - he prefers apples) (2) Hand feeding horses can encourage them to bite (you have already said that he tends to bite). So, my question is why would you want to give him sugar? I understand your thinking about the reward system but its not always the logical way with horses. Horses are not food chasers Monty says "a blade of grass never ran away from a horse" so the concept of food reward is a LEARNED behvaiour whereas with dogs (who I also work with) it is part of their natural response to 'earn' their food reward by having to work for it. In addition to this, what are you actually rewarding? The reward concept has a 1 second (yes ONE SECOND) window - when you think you are rewarding him for the work he has just done you are actually rewarding him for standing still next to you. It is important to see the world the way Nuage sees it, not the way a human sees it :-)

So all in all, there is no benefit to the horse in giving him these treats. On the contrary, you could be doing him more harm by bulking him up with high sugar foods. However, I suspect what may be happening is that it makes you feel better and helps you to feel that you are connecting with him. I think if you follow what I talked about earlier you will have a horse that wants to be with you and work with you because he trusts your leadership not because you have sugar for him. I know its hard to drop this part of your relationship but I really do recommend that you examine it.

So, about his diet. I appreciate it being hard to "put meat on older bones" as one old horseman said to me, so I suggest that it might be worth investing in a vet and/or an equine nutritionist consultation, not one that is part of a horse feed firm because guess what they will recommmend? Their own rather expensive products! Your horse needs high calorie, slow release intake, sometimes given in oil form. Vegetable oil added to the feed can help but please can someone help me here as I can't remember which oil is bad to give to horses and which is good (sunflower, rapeseed etc.). Avoid large doses of linseed oil as this is about putting weight on him and large doses of linseed can cause liver problems. If you insist on giving him carrots - just give a few with his feed, chop them up and put them in his feed bowl dont hand feed them to him. Yes, you are right about checking his worm count: but again, watch that things aren't being overdone, get his faeces tested so see whether he actually does have a worm problem.

One last tip (and then I promise I will shut up!)- garlic is a common form of horse feed and sometimes it is given in quite large doses as a belief in its antiseptic/fly repellant properties, However, I worked with a horse recently who was losing weight and I did wonder if we were killing off the good bacteria in his gut which meant that he wasn't processing the food properly and therefore losing weight. I have no idea whether this theory makes sense but we cut his garlic out and it does seem to have helped a bit. I would be interested from hearing from others with more expertise than me in nutrition about this.

Viccihh has left such a great answer, but I want to add: PROTEIN!
If your horse is getting thin and stops building muscles he is usually not getting enough protein. You need to get the hay analyzed and figure out what his needs are, but adding Lucerne or alfalfa can go a long way to help.
If it doesn't, make sure to check his teeth!
.
Garlic is known to cause anemic problems and should not be given to foals or brood mares at least not in larger doses. ("Large" being a relative word here!)
.
As for oils, I do know sunflower oil is good.
.
I'm also very wary of the 4 month regimen of worm killer. There is a world wide HUGE problem with parasites getting resistant to Pyranthel, Ivomec etc, so PLEASE be sure to take a fecal sample for testing before any action is taken. Find out if it is needed and which ones to aim for.

Thank you so much for all these advice !!!
I'll let you know how every thing goes very soon !!

Thanks again !!

Good points Kicki, thankyou

Enjoyed reading all that :D One thing I'll add and sorry if it was mentioned ^_^, Pauline, your horse may already be communicating with you so look for signs of this, his head movements,ear movements and body language etc He'll be able to see that you are trying to communicate differently than a parelli way and could already be letting you know he's aware and waiting for your next move.

Mel
x

Thanks Mel, I'll keep that in mind ! You may very well be right !! :)

What a fabulous thread!! Just thought I`d have a nosey.
I study on the Uni all the time but don`t visit the forum that often. Well after reading this wealth of fantastic knowledge & great advise I will be making more effort to participate in the forum in the future.
Thank You for the inspiration & amazing read folks!!
Kind Regards. Jill. xx

Hi again everyone !
So, I did some work with Nuage this week !

First, about Nuage being abused or not. I don't think he has been beaten repeatedly for a long period but when I want to rub his face, either:
- he thinks I'm gonna give him some sugar or something and take his head back when he realizes I'm not
- he makes a movement back with his head as a scared horse, but usually only when I rub him and am standing on one specific side of him....
So I guess he did receive some bad treatment from a human hand but I don't think it was intentional at all.

That said, there are things I cannot let going on... When I'm in his stable, Nuage sometimes is very stressed out. And sometimes, when I try to buckle his saddle up, he turns his head and puts his mouth very near my thigh .... not necessarily in an aggressive way but the message is clear to me: BEWARE, I can bite you ...... and sometimes he tries... in those case, I must admit I give him a tap on the nose and say no... because I don't know what else to do and I cannot say nothing to him trying to bite me.

Viccihh, I listened to you and I stopped giving him sweets at any time. Now I give him one sugar when putting the briddle up and when I want to give him carrots, I put them in his food. He's already less aggressive !!! Thank you !!

NOW, about my 2nd Join up attempt..
Yesterday I went to ride Nuage, everything went ok, we worked outside for 50 minutes and then got back. I let him relax a bit under the solarium and then, I put him some protection on the legs (just in case !) and we got into the pen together. I did the orientation. And let him go but in a very calm way. I wanted him to feel free to lay down in the sand for a few seconds, which he did. Then, after he got up on his feet again, I tried to send him away but he wanted to be with me. He wouldn't flee. He was staying WITH me.

Then I realized... A few months ago, I had let him go in the pen just to relax and run a bit and was surprised at the time (I didn't know Monty's uni) that Nuage would follow me everywhere in the pen!! So, I realized maybe I already had joined up with Nuage without knowing it.

So yesterday I didn't force it. I did not see the point to send him away... he wanted to be with me already so I did the follow up... and it worked perfectly.

Since I received the Dually Halter on Friday, I put it on Nuage and started to do the exercises to help Nuage find the sweet point. I was afraid that it would be TOO uncomfortable for Nuage but the halter seemed "not uncomfortable enough" at some point !! Well, There is still some work to do but I felt he respected me more. I still had problem to keep him focused though. The main problem is he tries to play and bite the rope while we walk so it's kind of dangerous since I'm next to the rope and he can bite me. What should I do if that happens? Same question as a little bit above: how to explain this is a bad behaviour??

Furthermore, Nuage has a tendency to try to "step over me", meaning to cross the boundary and walk where I walk. In that case, I make him step back and a bit on the side for 4-5 steps but I don't really know if that's a good thing for me to do... is it?

I'm very glad with the halter for now !
What do you think about my join up theory ??
xx everyone !

Hi Pauline

I think you are doing great Pauline and I'm glad we've all been able to help. I am so glad you have had this breakthrough re: Join Up - yes if he is already joined up with you accept it and enjoy it!! The fact that he rolls in the sand while you are there is a good sign - he accepts you. Regarding the sugar - congratulations I know this was a big step for you, time to get rid of that last piece of sugar ;-)! So ok, on to the other things.

1. Head shy: well, there are two things going on here I think. don't forget horses only transfer about 20% of information from one side to the other so just because he is ok having his face touched one side, doesnt mean he is ok the other side so you need to desensitise that side. HOWEVER (and I'm sorry, I think I'm about to tell you off again - in a nice way :-) ) there is a bit of a circular problem going on too - he goes to bite you, you tap his nose (when he tries to bite when saddling up) he associates your hands with something unpleaseant and then you wonder why he pulls away when you go to stroke him. Tapping horses or poking them on the nose for biting DOES NOT WORK (I am astounded by how many people do this!). When I said to one client "Why do you do this?" she said "Its to stop him biting" I said "So how come he's still biting and you are still poking!!?" This is why he is still biting you, you are getting into a battle with him. Keep his mouth away from you Pauline! As soon as he gets near you, back him away. (see later for specific about the saddle issue)

2. Stepping over you: yes you are right - use the Dually to back him up - watch Montys leading lessons and the Dually DVD over and over again I have watched it about 40 times now and still refine what I do.

3. Biting when saddling : a common issue usually from past practice of people rudely girthing up too tight and too fast and/or sticking a toe in accidentally when getting on. its rude and painful. Other reasons can be stomach ulcers and pressure on the collection of sensitive nerves in that area, saddle doesn't fit properly etc. So be sure saddle fits properly, girth up very gently and in 3 stages. Linda parelli does a nice little video on you tube called "Saddling up the friendly way" - sensible common sense advice on it. If all this has been eliminated I solved one horse doing this by having my hand over the saddle while girthing up and then when his head came towards me I tapped the other side of the saddle so he turned his head to look at the other side! when his head was lined up in front I stopped tapping so he knew where I wanted his head to stay (this is much easier to show someone than explain!!) But really important to make sure he is not in any pain.

Keep going Pauline, I have every confidence you will get there, but most of all watch the leading a horse lessons over and over again. Good luck! Vicci.

Forgot to ask, what do you mean "stressed out" when you are in the stable...what is he doing?

Hi Pauline - once again thanks Viccihh as she has said it all. Great that you now have the dually halter as I know this is going to help you correct those minor disrespectful occurances. Use the dually correctly when leading Nauge - as Viccihh says watch Monty's videos. If he is inclined to walk over you then you need to hold the lead rope close to the discipline ring and be ready to correct him by using a straight arm and definite tug when he moves into you to push him away - back him up too as this will help him understand that he has done the wrong thing. When saddling again use the dually. Have him tied to the tie up ring or to a rope halter under the dually and then attach another shorter lead to the discipline ring. whenever his head moves into you give a correction on the short lead and take his head back to where it should be. Have fun you are making great progress.

Thanks again for all the great advice !!
Next session of equus work will be for this weekend !
Can't wait !!
My relationship with Nuage is getting better and better.
When he tried to put his head next to me while I was saddling up, I put his head back to its right place as long as I had to, but I was glad when he finally kept his head there.

About the Head shy problem. I understand the problem with my tapping his nose and then wondering why he's afraid... sometimes, the explanation is so simple you can't see it. That's why it's great to have you here to help !! :)

I don't do the exercices of the videos everyday because I watch each video 4 or 5 times and re-read the notes I take several time. I don't want to mess things up !! The Dually is gonna be a great help I'm sure of it !

About the saddling in itself, Nuage has skin problem every winter, so I was told. Some kind of exema. While riding, I don't feel like he's in pain but I do see that when I put him his special cream on the back (..) and on some parts where the "strap" (sorry, don't know the English term for this) presses his belly. So, that explains his discomfort. I would recommend to stop riding for a while but it's really no use since even his stable blanket causes similar reactions... He can be very sensitive and very strong at the same time... :S Anyway, I'm very careful about the toe thing and to girth up very gently !! :) I think I get your explanation about your technic to make the horse understand where you want his head to be ! I'll try it !!

Next lesson for me and nuage is : more "sweet spot" and then the "no moving" lesson ! He's already very good at that so I hope it goes on well !

Thank you also Maggie for your advice ! It will be very useful as well and safe at the same time !!

Thanks again to both of you !!! :) :)
And talk to you soon !

Wonderful progress Pauline, congratulations!

Sounds great Pauline. Just wondering about Nauge's skin problems - it sounds as if he has an allergic reaction. Perhaps changing the material in the saddle blanket and girth my help i.e. if they are synthetic maybe wool or cotton or vice versa. I would be great if you could get an allergy test done but I realise this may not be possible. Have fun and hope all goes well this week-end.

Ohhh, Dear, I have to laugh with tears here...I had same experience with a young green Arabian horse ....goodness .... i thought he would jump on me...hahaha ...but I stayed calm... have to read all this later...help Monty HELP!!!!!

Reading everyone's wonderful advise re join-up and finding it so helpful myself I'm wondering if anyone could advise my next step with my beautiful 10yo WBxTB mare.
This week, a new student of Equus online University and to Monty's join-up-< this has given me hope, help and happiness never found before in my equine experience> I'm in need of help after incomplete success with Lovely after trying to join-up in her large paddock. She has "learned" not to be caught though after 5 years of minimal work, especially if I'm carrying a halter/leadrope and during the main part of the day-ie 10am-4.00pm. So generally only able to catch her with feed of some kind with an intention "not to catch her". She will eventually "catch me" however if I pay little attention to her-collecting poo for instance..
Trying Monty's join up techniques in the paddock was exhausting for both of us and 2 hot hours later I had to walk away without join-up. I had noted the 4 signs though but from a distance up the paddock. When I slowly arced my way closer to her and invited her to come to me she ran off again. So I "pushed" her away again (for the 20th time) and walked out of the paddock very despondantly. I wonder what I'm doing wrong? Is this a case for the Dually halter? < On order!!>
At about 5pm with a bag of carrots in hand, she nickered to my call and didn't hesitate to come over to me. I actually tried follow up after orientation and this worked well (without carrots in hand)! I felt encouraged. I'm wondering what my next move re join-up should be. Another 2hr paddock attempt, a friends round yard, or just the Dually?? Really looking forward to your ideas.

Hi Caro - hope I can help out a bit. It is hard to achieve join up in a large paddock if you haven't already achieved a couple in a smaller area. They need to know what you are asking of them when you send them out and in a large paddock they will just take off if they do not already know about join up. Plus 2 hours is far too long - it should really happen relatively quickly if it is going to happen at all and you will know as when you send them off in the large paddock they will canter around you in a circle and not just take off. If they take off then I suggest you may as well give up straight away and find a round yard. Plus I am not sure how Monty would respond but I don't think join up should be used for our horses to catch us although I must admit I have done so in the past myself. Monty suggests that we shouldn't use join up more than six or so times with the same horse. So for join up take your horse to your friends round yard and try it there. Remember to re watch Monty's video first so that you get the actions right. Try join up in the round yard a couple of times over a number of days. When you feel your horse understands what is required and is joining up nicely with you in the round yard then you may wish to try it in the larger paddock just to see if it works there too. It should. Catching your horse in the paddock is a different problem altogether. As you do not seem opposed to giving your mare carrots then I would suggest that you do this to encourage her to come to you so that she can be caught. I have always caught my horses with carrots and have not had any problem of a horse biting me because of this - it does depend on the horses personality and if the horse is inclined to bite and lay her ears back at you or if the horse is to be around children then I would agree with Monty about NO carrots by hand. However most horses respond positively to being given a carrot as a reward - they should be trained not to look for them on you but to wait for you to give them one. Now with using carrots to catch your horse - approach her as Monty does in "how to catch your horse in the field" i.e. eyes down, slow movement etc. but I would tend to keep the halter and lead behind my back to start with or not have them with me - just hold out the carrot and walk slowly towards her. When you are close to her give her the carrot, rub her on the neck and over the head where the halter would go and then walk away. So this a couple of times - sometimes with a carrot and sometimes without and then do the same with the halter and lead in one hand. Once she is happy for you to walk up to her - she may even be coming to you now - then you should be able to catch her easily. This time keep teh carrot treat until after you have put the halter on. I would not try to catch her with the dually as it is a bit cumbersome and hard to put on and horses do tend to object to it until they are used to it. I would catch her with a rope halter or traditional halter. You can then slip the dually on over the rope halter and remove the rope halter from beneath it before you tighten the dually up to the correct fittings. The dually should be used as a training device and it is fantastic as such. Use it to train your horse to lead in the sweet spot, to trot with you in the sweet spot, to stop beside you on command, to stand still for saddling and the farrier etc., for floating problems, for lunging or long lining and for riding if you choose. If your horse is already well trained and perfect in every way then you do not need a dually halter.. Once again my apologies to all those dedicated, true Monty students who follow his teachings to the letter. Monty is my hero and I am a true fan but there are some points I differ on and the feeding of carrot bits by hand is one of them - giving treats to your horse when you catch them means that catching is never a problem! A horses genetic nature and cruelty by humans in the past is what causes them to be biters not the feeding of carrot bits by hand as long as that feeding is done appropriately and the horse does not look for the reward.

Thank you so much for your advise Maggie. I find it very supportive, confirming some of my thoughts. In particular that of initially doing join-up in a large paddock and using join-up to catch my mare. I knew that I might be attempting something that would not be successful (that she wouldn't understand what I was asking of her) and therefore dubious about using join-up to catch her but really wanted to give it a go. In regard to what Monty might say re the latter. Perhaps he would suggest that there wouldn't be a catching issue if join-up was complete? I'm not sure. I will certainly try the round yard as the next step though. She has a lovely nature so as long as I do it correctly it should be OK. I will certainly re watch the join-up session video again-and again!
The 2hrs was a mistake and hope she hasn't learnt anything negative as a result. I've been very undemanding of her since and we've had a gentle time, responding well to my usual catching methods (with the carrots), your advise and Monty's video, lots of leading and rewards.
Thankfully, biting has never been a vice of Lovely's, she does however look for the carrots now and gets an bit direspectful there. So will have to correct that. I'm looking forward to the arrival of the Dually halter as her advanced training from years ago needs a tweek or two and at 16.2hh she can be a little overwhelming! Leading in the sweet spot for example- she tries to create the pace. Will be doing some longlining in the round yard as well as float training once we've mastered join-up so the dually halter will be very helpful.
Once again Maggie, thank you for you help and will proceed slowly step by step. Next step- round yard and join-up.

I hope your luck is better than mine. Beamer wrote me off as a loser after I failed both of the attempts I have made at Join-up. Im hoping that I can attend a clinic in my area sometime this year and find out if it's me not giving the correct cues or if the fact that he is alone is starting to take its toll.

Great Caro. Good luck with it and let us know how you get on in the round yard. She sounds as if she has a lovely personality so you should have no biting issues with feeding her carrot bits. I chop mine into inch (3cm lenght bits and keep them in a bum bag. Try not to allow my horses to look for them - just hold their head away with the dually until they are waiting patiently - harder with my Tricka who is a bit cheeky and probably should not be fed carrot bits.

Hi Caro

Most of my join ups have been in the field, it can take between 25-60 mins for the join up first time and about 15-20 mins the second time, but they'll not always follow up. given they have a greater space to run and even gallop on the first attempt, you do find that they naturally start to make smaller circles around you after they have locked their ear on you, then there would have been a slight lowering of the head, then if she's got far enough away from you she would have dropped her head to eat until you got a bit closer then move off a short distance until you can get closer and closer. When they are ready to join up they stand to attention allowing you to move in to touch them, so a bit of visa versa here, they allow you to come rather than asking them to come to you. Remeber though when they do this to loose the eye contact as you dont want to move them on anymore. Once they allow you to come, start at the head working your way around the body with stroking, scratching etc, any movement from the horse that says I'm not comfortable with that, back off and start at the head again, do this untill they let you touch the whole body, remeber they are not yet haltered so are now letting you touch all over in trust. Once all over is touched, then introduce the halter, I use the daully and after they've let me touch the face and body with the dually, then when you feel they've accepted the feel of the daully, slip it on. Still trusting and still with the freedom to walk away if they wanted to. This part should take around 5-7 mins. Once the halter is on, walk away in the direction you are heading and you'll find on a loose lead they'll follow you. I dont work the daully at this point, just a gentle lead to the work out area.
My first join ups now are in the field and I've only ever have to do 2 field join ups per horse, catching them afterwards on other days becomes much easier, applying monty's methods for catching. I find also mimicing the movements of their front legs exactly as they move them shows them that you are wanting to be with them, using this mimic technique just takes moments for the horse to stand still to put on a head collar. Watching horses at play with each other they mimic each others movements.
When Monty did the join up with the wild mustang because of the amount of space the mustang has to run, it took days for join up to happen. Just look for the signs and dont get despondent if you dont think it's working. Oh one last little thing, you dont have to run after them to move them forward, use your eyes, body stance and arms to guesture what you want them to do. If you have them running on a left reign and want them to turn, even if they''re 100 feet away from you, as long as that ear is locked you'll be able to turn them to the oposite reign by stretching your arm out as if stepping infront of their shoulder and moving your body as if to step infront of them. I cant run, let alone hardly walk but keeping calm, in control and that contact with the horse it draws them to you.
From reading your description you said when the join up didnt work you sent her away again, what happened, did she stand still and look at you?
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