This is so difficult when you can't watch what and how you do, but is it possible that the rings have banged into her face when you reached over to take the back strap?
You could try covering the rings with yarn so they are softer and makes less noise.
Also, you could try tying them to the halter so they don't jingle about, at least until she is used to it.

My Star
If you need to use the dually halter and your horse is nervous about the equipment desensitizing him will help your horse overcome his reluctance to accept the halter. It sounds like you have been working on this by shaking the halter and he is allowing you to put the nose piece on. Instead of reaching over his neck to grab the top part of the halter try using your bother hand and place the top piece over from the right side of the horse then grab the halter from where you normally stand. You could also try this by having another person on the right side slowly place the halter top piece over towards you, all the time reassuring your horse that it is OK.

One other trick you might try is to wrap the metal rings with vet wrap the same color as the halter. That way the rings do not make any noise nor are they bright and shinny which may be contributing to his nerviousness

Cheers

Oh My Star - I think I can help you out here! My young mare is not scared of the dually halter but she is very smart and has decided that she doesn't wish to be caught if I have the dually with me. It is cumbersome to put on when you are first trying to get used to it too. Solution - catch your young horse as you usually do with the rope halter that she accepts, lead her into an enclosed safe area and thenintroduce the dually. Very slowly hold it out to her with eyes down, take it back behind you if she appears scared then slowly re-introduce repeat this process until she will sniff it and accept it is just another kind of halter, contiue her familiarisaation by maybe placing the whole halter over her neck and then down onto her back - talking to her gently and stroking her all the time or whatever it takes to keep her calm - I find the odd bit of carrot is handy at times like this to keep my horse happy and distracted. Once she is fully familiarised with the dually and no longer scared of it then slowly and gently slip it on OVER your rope halter. Like a conventional halter have the nose band done up but on one of the looser holes and attach the head band also leaving it a little loose initially for ease of attachment.. Now fit the head band correctly but leave the nose band slightly loose. Transfer your lead rope to the halter ring on the dually and slip the rope halter off from underneath the dually. Do your final adjustments to the dually so that it is fitted snuggly and correctly. Now you are ready to lead her around with the dually maybe initially just in the traditional halter mode. Once she is content with this then you can transfer your lead to one of the side rings and start a dually halter lesson. Good luck with it. I now always catch my young mare first with the rope halter in her paddock leaving the dually on the ground and then transfer to the dually. Works well for me so I hope it does for you too.

Thanks guys for all your advice, I really appreciate it.

Dennis I'm going to try this, putting my right hand under her jaw and gently reach to push it around her pole, we'll see.
My biggest problem is I'm a shortie, 5 feet 2 inches and My Star is a biggie, so I'm going to do my best. She normally puts her head down for me when I gently touch her pole, it's the sound, I'm sure, new to her, and I should have known to desenitize her to it before I ever tried to put it on, I know better.
The idea of the yarn is great but I will continue to desensitize her to the sound. I've been doing this since I rescued her, to all sounds,(2 years now) didn't have a dually until recently.
She's just a baby and wasn't treated too kindly before she came to me at just months old, they don't forget.
I never have a problem with my horse, for haltering, or just about anything.
Thank you for the suggestion but I never feed her in anyway, her food only goes in her bucket, I'm not a food machine, I'm a human that she shows great respect for. I walk into any field or pasture, hand singal and she comes to me.
As I said I'm a member of Monty's Uni and watched the video and lesson over and over on how to use the halter and put it on correctly but that is kind of hard when a young horse is frightened by something, time is my greatest friend, I have more than 15 minuets to do this, I'll keep you posted.
I'm like Monty, no harm, mentally or physcially. I've been doing this a long time and am a strong believer of desensitizing, it builds confidence in a horse, the plastic bags work wonders.
I also believe a horse should never be distracted when a human is working with them, this can be very dangerous and they will have learnt nothing, no imprint.
Also, when she first started with halters I always transferred from one to the other by slipping the one halter from her head then wrapped and tied it around her neck while I applied the other, this is what one has to do in a barn when tacking your horse for ridding, if you don't want the horse running wild in the passageway.
Something that may make you all laugh, when I introduce MY STAR to anything new I lay it on the floor of her bridge that is located in her large pasture, she's very curious and has no fear of most things. Now, when I went to bring her in for the night yesterday, her dually halter was not there. She had picked it up and carried it all the way to the fence line, strange no fear of the sound then, ah.
I laughed so hard, I thought, she's thinking, "I'm getting this thing as far away as I can, no way is this coming near me."
I also have new things hanging around her large stall, from the ceiling, she has chewed her sircingle buckels pretty good now, nicely broke in!!!
She trully is a sweet horse, the fault does not lie with her but with something I am not doing correctly.
Thank you all so much.
Again thanks guys, I do really appreciate all of your suggestions. I'm hoping Monty will have a lesson in his program on how to introduce the halter to a newbie horse.

I don't know exactly what to tell u. Try joining up before putting it on, if that helps. Catch her with a normal halter first, and then make a sort of rattely training tool, and rub it all over her face.

Hope it goes well

It sounds as if you have plenty of experience and your own strong believes in how to handle and treat horses so go for it. We are all allowed to differ in our views as like horses we are all different and what works for one may not necessarily work for another. Good luck with it - I am sure you will work it out.

See further comment under Dennis's Forum Question

Sorry Maggie if I seemed a bit harsh yesterday. I just found out my sister has only weeks to live and I'm pretty touchy right now.
Thanks for you advice, I do appreciate it.

Hi Mimi,
I'll take that advice and start as soon as possible. Like I said it's my own fault, I should have done it before I put it on her.
She does allow me to put it on, it just is not easy as the rope one and right now I'm stressed to the limit.

Maggie, I believe you are being very unfair to me. I am following Montys advice when it comes to food and whips and distracted horses being dangerous, plus my many years of experience.

This forum is a source of adivce that others can benifit from, the forum is only as good as the advice given. If it goes directly against MONYTS advice than yes I will speak up and speak up with power. This is HIS university and the advice given by himself and other instructors should not be altered.
People who seek adivce expect it to co-inside with what they are learning on the UNI. I read that you have watched the videos many times but like the advice of others, that's great and as you say different strokes for different folks but there can lie a problem, too much different advice can be very confusing and what works for a man who has done this with thousands of horses successfully, who can or would dispute this.
I said I would not be commenting again but I will be montoring, unsafe advice is unsafe and you're correct one has to be careful on how one gives that adivce.

Again all I can say is that I am so sorry My Star. I certainly did not mean to offend in any way or to be unfair - quite the contrary. However I still believe we can differ in opinion here - I too have had many years of experience but DO NOT regard myself as an expert. I contribute to Forum because I wish to help others with their horses - it is up to them whether they take my advice or not - I am not trying to influence them. I admire Monty and value what his teaching I simply have a different view re the giving of treats. I see treats as positive re-enforcement not as a distraction and other famous trainers have used them so I am not alone here. I guess it is up to Monty and his forum monitors if they wish to censure contributions to this open forum. I regret now having responded under Dennis Forum prior to reading this. It is a tough time for you so take care and our thoughts are with you.

Plus - fair enough My Star. I will NOT mention carrot treats again on this Forum. Apologies to everyone for doing so in the past.

H All
This is great! No kidding this is what a forum should be. I don't believe anyone that writes on the forum wants to offend anyone but is just giving their best opinion. I think Monty is a terrific horseman and I really believe his philosophy is sound. I sometimes disagree with him and always figure there is more than one way to get to the same point.

My Star, my deepest sympathies and best wishes in your moment of travail. Loosing a loved one tries your very being.

Maggie I really respect your opinion and look forward to reading your comments. As a matter of fact I have learned more than I have given.

Best to All
Cheers!

Hi all,

Well where shall I start to react. First of all I was thinking SHALL I react, but yes I feel I have to.

I agree on Dennis his comment just here above.

We all are working with horses and want to do our best for them. So if we have a problem with something we ask the forum.
Then the answers/solutions are coming and it is YOU who is doing something with it.
We can start argueing about a carrot that this is wrong, but what was the question? And is the problem already solved?
I can see there were a lot of students who reacted on this question of the dually halter.
These students took the time and energy in it to react.
Like Maggie who wrote it all out, well I can emagine how much time and work this cost.
Smoke came nearly out of my computer when I read your comment MY STAR to Maggie. You are a believer and a follower what Monty is doing and saying and you will stand up and that's oké, but.....see the whole picture.

How I see it is that Monty had/has his lessons in his life and he stood up for himself and is sharing his experiences with us. This is so good and I love all his advices and the way he is dealing with it.

I can say I have a few month of experiences with horses and I realy don't mind that somebody else have a lot of experiences. Do you know why? Because I always will think how many years of experiences does that person has with him/herself?! Is there a balans in experiences and that person? If there is I can follow and learn!!!

I have many years of experiences with myself and with that I can do my best to learn more of all the things what I am doing in life.
Horses are the most sensitive animals I ever met and it is also healing. Through them I learn more from myself and the other way around as well.

So saying this all, when we have a problem and we got the solutions through the forum we can see what we are doing with it. Like a red thread throug a story. Take what you can use and leave other things out what you can't use. Or ask more to understand what somebody is telling you. (We can't hear or see each other, that can be a problem with writing)

What Monty sais look into the mirror or when you have a problem take a few steps out of this problem and sit down (in the early days they smoked a sigaret) and think what you are doing. Relaxe and take the time. Or video your problem and watch this over and over again to see what you are doing wrong.

I will put the white flag up here and say to you all, thanks for all your suggestions. I am realy happy that I found the website of Monty and being a student and learn so much more.

To you Maggie; I will put you the dually on now...because??? ... yes, you will understand me....

To you MY STAR; I wish you all the strengh you need with the very sad situation you are in now with your sister.

To us all; When we are as good as Monty is (or even better, what his wish is) THEN we can start to argue about a carrot or my grammar (I am Dutch and sitting here with my dictionary.. haha...).

Best to all of you,
very kind regards May, Holland.

Hi My Star and all the other students who want or can learn from this,

Well what I did with the dually was in the first place not realy clever..... you will find out when you are reading this.
I have Luuk 2yo and Renske 16yo and both I introduced the dually.
I started with Renske and because I was/am still making contact with her (eyecontact, see question eyes on eyes) and working on her trust, I didn't have her full confidence.
Oké... I do every morning her own halter on and when she was standing outside the stable, I showed her the dually for the first time. She is a lady who wants to see things, then she moves a little bit because; oh help this is new and then she wants to sniff on it. BUT there was a noise!!!!! Mmmmm..... you could see she didn't like it. So I took it away from her (behind my back)and tryed to get her curiosity. Then I showed her the Dually again, very slowly, holding those buckles that it didn't make a sound. That was a little bit more oké. I waited a few seconds and gave her a stroke on her forhead, eyes down.
The next day I did the whole procedure again in her stable... new situation. And also that worked out, but still a little bit moving around when I let her hear the sound.
Well now it comes....!!! day 3 in the stable I showed her the dually and I put it on here, yes, yes, yes it is working. I had to see how I had to put it on because it was my first time and you will not belief it......, but after watching the lessons over and over again I put the dually up site down on her face. (How clever!!!!) There she stood my lovely, understanding, patient horse with her dually up site down. Well that was it for Renske because when I took it of, very carefully, she was probably thinking: you can come back with that thing when you know how you have to use it to put it on me!!!
Day 4; I came into her stable, gave her the attention, stroke her (something I always start with)and took the dually from the hook and showed her the dually. She walked away from me and turned her back to me, stood there and looked at me over her shoulder. (I have to admire that I was laughing insite of me, because I made a mistake the day before and she is reacting on this). I put the dually back on the hook and took her normal halter and there she came..., she let her put me on her halter.
Oké... day 5...Well the question was, what am I going to do now to get her trust with that new, noisy, up site down thing?
I took the dually and put my arm through it and hang it on my left shoulder. Renske saw that and didn't react. I took her own halter and put it on her. I made a little bit the noisy sound with the dually when I put HER own halter on.
Day 6; Did the same procedure as day 5 and it was oké.
And now it is day 7 and that's today!!!
So if anybody wants to know how things are working out on this I will tell you later.
The story of Luuk is a very different story!!!! He is a young boy of 2 yo who likes everything and likes to play in the paddock. Sometimes I am thinking the only thing he doesn't have is his short trousers on and having fun with his buddies.
Day 1; I showed Luuk the dually in his stable and YOU WANT BELIEF IT I put it in the right direction on him and he just stood there if we did this for years.
That was it..... no problem, no nothing of the sound, or the new halter. I walked him out of the stable, rope clicked on the ring underneath and there he stood. Can you understand how happy I was and proud about myself and offcourse Luuk. I am working with Luuk to do stand still and I did this for two times now, every day a little bit more. It is realy working very well. There is one small problem with Luuk. He is a very clever, naughty (in the good way) boy. He takes sometimes the rope into his mouth when I am training him with the dually, so I can't correct him. I am working on this now to pull a little bit on the ring so he gets the feeling that it is not feeling good and he leaves the rope for what it is.

What I will say with this is.... when you make a mistake learn from it!!!! I was nervous about my new Dually, how to put it on and was more bussy with that than with my horse. So I annelised what I did wrong with Renske and could do better with Luuk. And one horse has not not the other horse!!!
I am realy aware of the fact that everything can be a threat in the eyes of a horse (learned from Dennis, thank you). I am acting in this way to introduce new things and if it needs more time because I made a mistake I have to be more patient to get the result I want and let the horse his/her give the time to trust me on the new things.

This was again a long story but hopefully I can help somebody out there.
And yes you may laugh about my silly mistake, but I am sure that somebody out there did something silly as well, because we didn't give the full attention for what we were doing.

Good luck, May.

Oh May,
I love this. You are not the only one to have done this, trust me. Even now when I go to put the dually on I have to totally examine it, like I was performing surgery or something.
It has so many contraptions on it it's like rocket science. My Star just looks at me too, only as if to say what's wrong with you.
Horses really show us how silly we can be, ah. But it's fun, right?
And my dear husband was rushing to get MY STAR into her stall, it was raining like buckets. He had one of her normal halters, the rope ones, and he went to slip it on and started to laugh, he had put it on upside down. Poor Star she must think we are a bunch of idiots. But she loves us just the same, I'm sure. As your two horses do too.

Hi My Star,

Well do you want to know more about my soap story; How to start to put the Dually on?
Day 7; I came in the stable, gave Renske her hug and took the dually from the hook. Put it on my left shoulder and started to put her own halter on. Before I clicked it realy on I put the Dually on my under arm. Renske saw that and walked a few steps away from me. Looking at me like; hum... there she is again with that thing. I asked her with my eyes to come back to me and she did!!!! So with the Dually still on my arm I clicked her halter and she was alright that the Dually came closer and closer to her.
Tomorrow I will try to put her the Dually on.
Story being continued, if you like to know.
Cheers, May.

Thanks May, I love to hear these successful stories and to have a good laugh.
Ronda

Hi Ronda, (MY STAR)

Just to tell you that IT WORKED.....yes....!!!!
Yesterday, I went to Renske and tried the Dually on from the front left side. So different what I did before. It took a little bit for Renske to come to me, because she saw that halter again, but she came to me without pressure my side and I put it very relaxed on her. I had to make it fit on her, but she was alright. I could see that she still didn't like it, but she agreed on it. Then I took the Dually of again and stroke her. She walked away and I asked her again, with my eyes, to come back to me. It took a while (few minutes), but in the end she came to me. I put her halter on and took her outside the stable and gave her her beauty-treatment haha..
Today I will put the Dually again on Renske and see how it works then.

On the forum I asked a question about comfortzone and Gen gave me a lot to think about. Also Rudi gave me advice and
with all off this and reading other "stories" finally it worked.

I am not drinking caffinated coffee now and I want to see if there is any differences in action-reaction on both. If you want to hear the results of this, just tell me. (Read comfortzone if you want to know, what I am thinking of that.)

Thank you so much for all the advices and responses and after nearly two weeks of trying, keeping my patience and relaxed attitude and your ideas, the whole soap-story about the Dually became a succes.

Cheers, May

Hi,

I don't understand, why you should use the dually. Isn't the sense of its use to make the horse stay in the comfort zone? You said, that your horse is already following you everywhere without difficulties. He already trusts you. So why treat him as if you wouldn't trust him. If I were a horse, that would really confuse me.
My own horse also follows me everywhere, freely, not tied on his rope halter in the open countryside. So why should I do join up ore try to “school” with a dually ?
Why invent problems, where there are not ?

Bijjybaji

Billybaji
Not to be argumentative, her horse will not allow the dually halter to be put on so the horse does not trust her completely. You are correct that the dually is meant to signal the horse that if the resist it will be uncomfortable for them and is they yield it will be comfortable for them.
The one thing that I would like to stress is that there are many ways to train a horse, some of them better than others. There are many "tools" to use to train a horse, some of them better than others. The way Monty trains horses for him is the very best way to do this. By teaching the concepts of his teaching he is giving people another tool to use and the dually is oe of these pieces of equipment that makes it easier to communicate with the horse whether they are fully trained or not.
Personally I do not use the dually but I use the concepts that the dually presents.

Cheers and I appreciate your comments

I sometimes get the feeling, that some people just follow patterns, not reflecting if the application is really necessary. So they copy movements of body language without the connection with the horse, they use tools, without really knowing what effect and consequences they have. I often realize a lack of sensibility for the right moment when to stop an exercise. I would like that these people spend more time observing horses without interfering.

Hey there billybaji,
While I do appreciate what you are saying I would like to point out that you know absolutely nothing about me or my background.
I have been around horses for over 55 years and been training them for almost 40 years.
You do not know, nor have seen my new horse. She is young, hot blooded, orphaned, very shy and was rescued by me from an abusive situation.
If you read the posts carefully you would see and understand the problem, NOISE, has been solved. Desensitizing a horse to every possible sound and sight is simply good horsemanship, if you want a safe horse.
If you had read further and read MONTY'S BOOK and watched his VIDEO'S on the Unniversity you would understand that there is more to training a horse than having one follow you around like a puppy.
The purpose of the Dually Halter is to TRAIN a horse with NO PAIN, to help the horse to get the message, co-operate and you will have more confidence in yourself, I'm here to hold your hand, if you need me.
Training a hottie mare at liberty would not only be foolish but dangerous for the horse and me until she is ready.
I have choosen to use the dually halter, as a trainer, because I believe it works and gets across a message to the horse that I need you to pay attention to what I am asking you to do.
For 2 years I had used the rope halter and another training program and MY STAR learnt a lot BUT in just a month of using the dually halter she has advanced so much further and with less confusion.
Read the whole story on how I always observe horses before I start any program with them and have used many training programs from many universities, according to the horse's needs.
I am not a novice nor do I appreciate it being implied.
Oh yes, Dennis, I believe MY STAR does trust me or she wouldn't follow me.
Everyone seems to forget the issue here, IT WAS THE NOISE, new sounds, new items, new surroundings, all of these can set a horse back, especially a hot blooded young filly.
My question to all was, "has anyone else had a problem with the noise". I had a lot of good suggestions but no real answers, what can I say, two people can see the same accident and report two different events! I guess that's the issue here.
I responded because I felt I had to defend all who have choosen to be open minded enough to explore new ways of training horses and also being accused of having a lack of sensibilty, not acceptable, I'm afraid!!!!!

My Star

It sounds like you are not really happy with anyones efforts to help you so good luck and I hope that you are able to resolve the situation. There is a saying that if you don't like the answers don't ask the question

Cheers

My Star

I am sorry that you feel offended by my last post. Actually I was not referring to You. I just expressed an observation about people that I have seen.
Best wishes from Billybaji

Hi Billybaji it is good that you have entered our discussion here. I would like to support My Star re the dually. Billybaji, if your horse is very quiet, perfectly trained, has good ground manners and is responsive in every way then you certainly have no need for a dually. Most of us aren't so lucky. We are dealing with young horses or horses that have been abused by humans in the past so that they have developed problems and phobias. A dually halter is a valuable aid with these horses. Yes, it is still possible to train these horses without a dually. Humans have been doing this since time begun. In early times we designed the traditional buckle halter. However this halter is not much use in training as it does not give us much control over a horse and horses can learn bad manners with it as it is easy for them to overpower us. So we progressed to the rope halter. This was a great improvement. It is light and easy to put on and the knots on pressure points give us so much more control as horses yield to this pressure. The rope halter remains the most popular and widely used halter to-day. The dually is just another step in our progression of trying to train horses in a non-aggressive manner. Although cumbersome and awkward to put on the dually gives us much more control over our horses than the rope halter. It is far more effective with faster responses.

I did most of my training and breaking of my young mare with a rope halter and only joined Monty's on line uni. and discovered the dually earlier this year. I have learnt so much from Monty's videos but owning and using the dually halter have been by far the most important contributions Monty has made to my dealing with horses. Tricka has learnt to be a very responsive, trusting yet disciplined mare with it. I have helped friends load impossibly difficult horses onto floats and given some very pushy spoilt, domineering horses basic ground manners. I am now sold on the dually for those tough jobs although I still use the rope halter most of the time. The other day I watched a younger person trying to train her very upset mare from the ground with a rope halter. The mare was rearing and pulling back and although the owner was moving with her effectively and looking experienced in her handling the horse certainly had the upper hand. I suggested to the owner that she should try a dually halter. She replied "No way I am a Pat Parelli trainer and I wouldn't touch a dually" I just thought poor you not to be willing to try something that may work better. At the end of the day "Each to his own". If you do not wish to try something new that may be effective then don't.

Dear all,
I found the above discussion very informative: both because of the thoughts on how to get your horse used to new things and sounds, and because of the suggestion that we should be open to new training methods but evaluate for ourselves whether they make sense in our specific situation. I totally agree!

I have a practical question about the Dually: I'd love to try it. Just yesterday my draft horse managed to overpower me, and I feel a Dually would be a much more effective tool to correct her than a rope halter. Only problem is: the Dually size "large" is for small draft horses up to 800 kg. "My little pony" is a bit more than that.. Her head is so big that even standard sized draft horse head gear doesn't fit. Does anyone have a suggestion, can I for example modify her normal halter to reach a similar effect as with the Dually?

Well Chris,
This is a question for the staff at Montys site, I think.
On one of his videos he talks about this very problem. Monty had his halter pattened because he wanted to make sure no one would duplicate his because theirs might not be as safe as his and therefore harm the horse.
If you go to your Uni site and click on the support tab on the left side you can write the staff a question and they will get back to you or you could do as I have done lots of times and phone them, they'll direct you on what you can do.
I know this is not much information but as a horse lover you sound like you wouldn't want to hurt your horse.
The best to you.

Hi My Star,
thanks for the suggestion, I'll try that!
Chris

Hey guys,
How did this "?" on noise get so controversial.
As was pointed out direct questions need direct answers, less confusion, I believe.
I appreciate the attention the origianl question received but it got off tract, I think.
The noice situation has been resolved, she's hesitate but as a good girl will allow it to be put on. With more exposure she will come around, when she trusts that IT will not hurt her.
When she first came to me she had on a conventional halter, so small (it had been tied on her head) that it caused her to be bald under it and so tender. I'm surprised she allows me near her head at all. And the rope halter was an issue with her as well, poor little thin, so small and so afraid of everything. I'm very proud of her and how far she has come. I'm not sure if she'll ever be truly safe but I will not give up on her nor will I allow anything to hurt her again, not as long as I live, anyway. She's just so sweet.
I feel so sorry for her, she's bold but she's not.
Such a contradictory, she reminds me of a young teenager (female) I can do this all by myself but looks back to make sure Mom or Dad are around for the safety net.
I will never have all the answers if I were to live to be 100, that is why I have searched and tried so many different ways of training and listened to their advice and applied it to different situations.
And Maggie, it sounds just like MY STAR your story about the rope halter not always working, I've used it before and my daughter has used it on all of her horses and we have both had success but I'm afraid it just didn't cut mustard with MY STAR, thus, the dually.
I feel our greatest teachers will continue to teach us if we observe them as much as possible, the horse.

Hey Dennis,
I'm sorry if you took offence, I didn't mean you. I was defending all who are trying their best.
I would never hurt intentionally but am a true believer in justice and fighting for the underdog.
And really the question was about noise, wasn't it and you gave some sound advice.
Forgive me?

Hi Chris - yes contact Monty's staff or shop directly. Perhaps they can make you a special custom ordered dually for your 'baby' horse if you can give them her measurements. She sounds awesome and I am sure you would find a dually great if you can get one large enough!