Monty says to video tape yourself and you will see things you don't even know you are doing. It really helped me out.

Oh, by the way...I raise Icelandic sheep...have thought about Icelandic horses...what is their temperment like?

Hi Karl, it sounds great, that you achieved such good results with some of those horses!
I suggest you do some more work with the trained horses, get your bodylanguage more fluent, get your timing more exact and make it all yours. The idea of having yourself videotaped can help a lot, indeed. Ofcourse you shouldn't overdo one horse, but try to work with gentle and trained horses for a while, then come back as your skills grow and be surprised, what you have learned by doing. Will you let us know how things go on?

Thank you Cavalli and Miriam,for responding.Videotaping is a really good idea,and I have made arrangements to get a cam.
I belive you are right Miriam,I do need to get my bodylanguage and timing together.In my mind´s eye I see hesitation on my behalf.I vill take your advice and give the 2 horses a rest while I practice.

Cavalli !
I think most people (who know him)will agree the Icelandic Horse has good temperment.Cooperative and willing to work with you.But ofcourse this can vary,like any other race!

Hi Karl! This insight is the first step towards your goal; your hesitation made your young horses synchronise with you. Be proud of your good results with the trained horses and build up from that security you have. Remember to breathe right, this makes a lot of difference, too. I think in our enthousiasm we tend to want too much too soon, take your time, as Monty says: " Good horses count, time doesn't!". Keep us informed and enjoy it as you did right from the beginning.

Hi all

Well, I have finally gone and leased a horse and I feel both euphoric and crazy!! I am 47! What am I doing?

I have been watching and watching the join up video and reading notes and have a cue card made up for myself so I can check the process for the fiftieth time before I try it with my new Arab partner.

My lease starts on Dec 27th and I am both exhilerated and scared! Gawd I don't want to mess this up!

Wish me luck!
Rainy

Good luck Rainy,
I hope you realise all your dreams, I am a bit biased, but you couldn't have a better partner than an Arab. Just take your time, keep breathing , keep your adrenaline down,go ahead and have fun with your new partner. Introduce yourself politely, be his/her friend and watch the trust grow between you. At 47 you are just a spring chicken!

hi all i tried join up the other day with my new colt hes approx 18 months old but is more or less unhandled ive had him (lenny) about 5 weeks and we just left him to settle in with another colt whos approx 7 months old (diesel) who we brought at the same time we cant even get a lead rope on these guys so any contact we have with them is only when they choose to allow us to stroke them, we have a large round pen and a dually halter and ive been watching everything i can to do with monty and also going through my lessons on the online university and i decided to have a go at join up.i wanted to do it exactly the way ive seen it being done but as i cant get near enough to them to put a lead rope on i couldn't orientate them to the round pen but i did allow them some time in there just to get used to the pen anyway everything went great but they just would'nt come into me and actually join up so i went home and veiwed everything again left it a couple of days and tried again lenny came up to me but as i went to stroke him on the head he walked away from me i know its something im doing wrong but i cant see what, i was just wondering if its also because i cant get close enough to them to start with so theres no trust between us, they are completely unhandled any help or advice would be greatly appreciated thanks

Hi shulls star,
Being unhandled makes your two colts even more challanging. Try to see in your minds eye Join-up from the horse's point of view. "Here comes this person (preditor) and gives a few cues that might be trustworthy, I give it a try and then this person wants to come too close!"
What you can do after the horse has come to you, is walk away. This is something a preditor would never do. Chances are good your colt will follow you.
First touch is easier on the shoulder, not between the eyes, so try to slowly come towards the shoulder, touch and walk away. Breathing is very important, breathe slow and deep into your stomach, this keeps your and the horse's adrenalin down. Come back to the shoulder and repeat, sliding towards the neck and walk away. The hand should not be stratched out, try to close it and touch with the back of your relaxed fist.
Once you touch, you can slowly open your hand and rub or stroke with your hand open, but don't approuch with a "claw". From here you might slowly bring in a leadrope, let it slide over the neck, pick it up from under the neck and ty a nod. Here's your colt ready to start learning to lead.
Watch the videos on catching your horse in the paddock on this Uni, here you can see what to do and what not to do.
Let this be the beginning of a lifelong relationship based on trust, and have fun!
Miriam

Some times it is easier if you let the horse snif the back of your hand and slowly back around to the shoulder also if he lets you touch him or even better touches you, walk away and give him a break from you let him think about it. If he can't follow thats ok try moving around to his butt and see if he will turn to look at you. Stay out of kicking range! I worry about getting close then touching later.

Hope this helps

Kit

Just chiming in here. I was having the same problem with my mare. She would easily give me all 4 signs and then would not come in to me. I agree videoing yourself would probably help. I was not able to do that because I didn't have access to a camera, but what did help me was reading Kelly Mark's book "Perfect Manners". She is Monty's first student and is able to give even further tips about Join-up that help you look at what your doing in another way. She mentions there are many lessons you can do in handling your horse in groundwork even before you Join-Up (this might be very helpful for shuilus star). She also gives another alternative to Join-Up for some of the more shy horses that allows you teach positive reinforcement for coming in to the center. She says that some horses that have been lunged and taught to NOT come to the center sometimes lose that natural inclination. She said that you can actually lunge them and then pull them into the center and encourage them by rubbing their head and showing them it is ok to come when you ask. I hope I explained this right. I suggest picking up that book! I think she is also a student on here and you could ask her questions. Her organization is called Intelligent Horsemanship. I've learned a lot from her and Monty!

Hi Miriam

I had the most fabulous experience with Teighan the other day. The arena was slammed with riders, so I took Teighan to the outdoor ring and let him go. He went flying off, tail in the air, bucking and snorting, and then he had a lovely roll in the snow. The outdoor ring overlooks the ocean, and the light relects off the sea like crystal... it is a stunning view. So you can imagine how we both felt out there in the winter air with the sea congratulating us for getting outside instead of the stuffy ring!

Anyway, Teighan followed me everywhere! When I ran through the snow he trotted to catch up, when I turned, stopped, etc. he came right with me. He also enjoyed chewing my helmet. He likes to do that when I stretch his front legs out too. I never had an opportunity to complete join-up with Teighan; mostly because the arena is not free so that I can get in there to work on it. The outside ring was too full of snow to move quickly and send him away with the lunge line, so I just "played" with him instead. It was an incredible feeling to walk away, turn my back, and feel his hot breath on my neck behind me. Crazy. It amazed me that I didn't have to worry about him stepping on me! He just didn't.. So, is this join up?

I do seem to have an easier time riding him than most... maybe because I don't really get worked up about it if he doesnt' respond right away and the result is he tends to respond right away!! Crazy.

Anyway, Teighan does spook a lot, and I always walk him around the ring on foot to look at scary hay bails and such in the arena. I also rub his neck a lot when I am on him to help him settle. This seems to work well. What else can I do to desensitize him?

My mind is still blown that he followed me around and hurred to catch up! He is a stunning creature, and I can't quite get over the fact that he hung out with me!

Hi Rainy,
What a wonderful describtion of a great experience you had with Teighan! Reading it I could see and feel what you must have gone through. It looks like you build up a lot of trust with him and the 2 of you seem to agree on the fun part too. When the weather is better, or the roundpen is available, give a real Join-up a try, mostly to confirm to yourself that you're on the right track. Then forget about the right or wrong and live with these principles for the rest of your happy days with Teighan. Bodylanguage and trust are your greatest tools, keep them fresh and keep learning from this amazing partner at your side!
Miriam

Hi again,
Sorry I didn't go into the desensitizing! Do you have a Duallyhalter? This could help you with the desensitizing and trust building. What you could do is take a stick with a plastic shoppingbag at the end and begin with rubbing him all over with the side without bag. When he settles and lets you do this, turn the stick around ( you might ty the bag first with a rubberband) and ask him to accept this too. Everytime he reacts, you school him with the halter, everytime he accepts the stimulus, you take it away. In this manner he teaches the stick to go away. Remember doing both sides of the horse, what is accepted on the near side could be new on the off side. You can see Monty work with this method in the videos on Kadina and Georgia on this Uni.
Ofcourse there are many things that can help you desensitizing, like tarpolins, flappy raincoats, you name it. Use your creativity and have fun, let Teighan have fun above all.
Miriam

Hi, I have a 6 year old cob, just had our first winter with him, and having problems catching him. He pulls a face and turns his back end on me. I spent some time today trying the method from 'let your horse catch you', it ended up with him turning his bum towards me, which I didn't like, so I sent him away with squared body language, wide arm gestures, and flapped the rope on my leg. He was shocked and turned to look at me, head high,ears pricked straight at me, but I sent him away again as he seemed so alert, I didn't trust him . He went off for a drink and I retreated. I could see him watching me.HELP. What shall I do if I think he is threatening to kick. Retreat or send him away as the matriarc mare would. I feel he is walking all over me.

Hi c.ryall,
You are really worried about your relationship with your cob, this much is clear!
First of all I'd like to advise you to get some professional HELP, as your safety is at stake.
I guess you'll be dealing with the cob anyway, before a trainer can assist you, so for the time being I'd advise you to look away when he looks at you and look him in the eye when he turnes away. As soon as he turns his head to face you, look away again, maybe even turn away from him, you could even walk away. In this manner the situation can come down and you can try to draw him to you. Be aware of your breathing. Use approach and retreat, the release of pressure is the most important part in this. We all know that we can never win a fight with a horse, so don't let it come that far. Horses are re-active creatures, maybe you build up too much stress. Try to find a way out of the tension and he 'll be greatfull for it.
Stay safe and let us know how you're doing!

Hi Miriam, thanks so much for your suggestions. I have arranged for professional help in the spring when my husband has put up some post & rails for a schooling area. Tonto is a lovely pony, 14.2, and I know it's about ME, learning and bringing down my energy levels. I think the base problem is I don't realise when I'm building up the nervousness, I just know when it's high. I am going to use Bach Flower Remedies as a starting point.
Many thanks - Claire

Hi Claire,
So good for you to seek help with Tonto.
Remember that horses are our best teachers, be aware of your breathing. Try to play with it maybe in front of a mirror, when nobody watches. Deep breathing into you stomach can bring adrenalin down and calm you and your horse. They synchronize with the watchhorses on their herd, when these bring their adrenalin up, the whole herd is ready to flee. If you want to be a good "leading-mare" to your human/horse-herd, control your breathing and your eye-movement and -direction. Soft eyes and deep breathing can make a world of diffence. To bring energy up and down we should be able to control in both directions, up and down. What might help is the idea of an actor on stage, who has the whole range of energy at his disposal, able to shift when it is required.
Keep learning and find confidence in what you acchieve.
Miriam

Hi Miriam, I have been walking around the field every day, practising my breathing, keeping my energy low,practising simple advance and retreat method, and I have managed to get up close to Tonto and give him some lovely neck rubs. Small steps seem to be working, now doing it with headcollar in left hand. My convential horsey friends say he is taking the micky out of me...but something inside of me is determined to want to develop Tonto's trust in me using the Equus language theory. It's not easy when good friends tell me I have to get more assertive, show him whose boss, when instinctively I feel it's not for me.

When I am stood beside him, rubbing his neck, and he turns away, I turn away from him, not face him and give eye contact. Then I wait for him, and he comes back (this is all a neck & head movement really but he does it with his ears back). Admittedly I stand next to his loose hay, so he isn't grazing around the field, but it does feel peaceful and calm. It feels like it's working, but should I look him in the eye when he turns his head and neck away, I feel he is just on the edge of walking off at that moment.
Claire

Hi Claire,
You seem to have found the right tone for yourself and Tonto, great!
Ofcourse you don't want to change your attitude when you stand next to him and send him off, so try to relax and make him feel secure and WANT to stay. Should he take a step, go with him, touching his shoulder, or invite him back by showing your own vulnerable side ( flank ), looking at the ground. You can play with all the possibilities, see what works and stay as relaxed as you describe above. You're earning his trust step by step, isn't that wonderful?
Keep working and learning!
Miriam

Hi Miriam,

brill! Thanks for that advice...and I've just signed up for 6 months subscription after a 2 week promotional trial! This online uni is sooooo much better than buying mags from the shops. I feel really inspired :)

Claire

Hi Claire,
Welcome as a fellow student on the Uni!
We all share your inspiration and learn from the lessons and the forum. Questions and answers are great tools at any level of horsemanship and learning. Putting a question into words is just as mindclearing as trying to find the answer that fits best to the needs of the person that asks the question. What we all learn here helps us with our horsework in many ways. A win-win situation!
Miriam

Hello Claire and Miriam!
This is like another chapter in one of Monty´s books. It´s wonderful to read about other horse lovers new or old and about their progress with our awesome friends.
Claire, I totally understand you with your friends and their comments. Much as I love my husband and he is the sun in my life! he doesn´t really "trust this whole thing through the web". I´m sure if he saw Monty or someone similar at work in person and could talk to him etc... he would see it all so clearly but I think what really is the problem is that he doesn´t trust me around a horse. Willow is my very first and I am 56 years old.... I am learning everything with Willow having only ridden for one Summer (twice a week)about 20 years ago. But Willow is the gentlest young mare. I have written in another part of this forum about the day she arrived (at about 6 months old two Christmases ago) and our first contact that night. Ever since, we belong to each other. When I come to her stall she comes to me. If I walk up to the fence when she is outside she trots over to sniff and lick my hand. She moves with me as I walk around the fence and starts eating at my feet as soon as I start brushing her, in the field. I believe she knows I am her lead mare but I know and she knows I am soft and sometimes she tests our boundaries.
I wonder.... Now that the weather is so awful and it rains so much where we live (Cantabria, north of Spain; almost greener than Ireland!)she doesn´t always go outside every day, so she gets restless and when I walk in she rubs against my shoulder, licks my hands (for the salty taste of our sweat?) and messes my hair or pulls at the strings of my winter hat. I know she wants to go out but it´s pouring and being a country horse she has a thick coat of hair.
I bought her one of those rubber balls with a handle and I find it in a different part of the stall every day but I wish she would chew on the handle, I think her teeth are coming out and she´s like a baby teething.Could it be that she needs a pacifier??? (Hence the ball with the handle just in case)
There are so many questions.....! But this is all for now. Thanks! and Good Luck, Claire
Christy

Hi Christy,
So Willow is 2,5 years old now, does she have company in her stable?
Could you find some indoor-arena, where you would be able to start working with her?
If so, did you do Join-up with her, did you put a curcingle on her?
From that point on you could start some longlining, very gentle, she's not at an age where you'd want to put too much work on her plate, but she obviously is bored. Putting a Duallyhalter on her means you could start some groundtraining like backing-up, even some sidesteps if she's receptive to learning. Keep her mind busy, give her hay to occupy her and pray for better weather.
There's nothing you'd have to proof to your husband, but let Willow convince him that you're on the right track. Good horses are the best argument!
Let us know how things go,
Miriam

Hey Miriam
Teighan and I accomplished real join up on Friday! It was the coolest thing. He even followed me over a jump, and he could easily have opted to go around it. How amazing is that! Then, Mr. Ants in his pants stood still for a good half an hour with no halter or lead line while I groomed him. I can't believe it!!

Miriam, do you know any good resources for Equine Facilitated Therapy? I have a Masters degree in counselling, I want to get the equine end of things. The barn I go to just got approved as a service provider, and I would love to do that work. Any thoughts about written resources?
cheers
Rainy

Hi Miriam, I attempted join up with our 10 mth colt (Welsh/TB) last night, he seemed to enjoy running around and had no fear of the line being tossed toward his backside. He did not show any signs, left ear pricked toward me or dropping of head, no chewing, nothing. Now I know it must be me, so I'll continue to review the video's until I know it backwards.
Two questions, as he is only 10 mths and not wanting to over exercise him, I was going to wait 2 weeks before I try again, do you agree?
Also he has only been with his mother as a foal and since being with us he is in a field 24/7 with our Standardbred 10 yr old, would he know join up? is it instinctive?
Paul

Hi everyone! Morgsta, I hope you don't mind that I give you my thoughts on your questions.
First, somewhere on the university I have it written down that Monty says a horse should be a yearling before attempting join up. Its only a couple months away for your colt but it may make the difference. Second, I would think your colt should know his language.
I would try waiting to let him get a little older, watch Monty's videos to make sure it wasn't me communicating wrong and then try it again. Miriam probably will be able to give you a better answer but I hope a helped a little :)

Hi Paul and Joy,
Your 10 month old does know his own language, it is most of all learned from his mother and since he's in a field with your older horse and seems to get on well, I think he perfectly OK.
Monty says you can do a Join-up with a weanling as soon as he stops calling for his mother, of course you don't want to overdo anything with a youngster like that.
Do you have a Dually halter? This to me seems the tool of the moment.
What I would suggest is do some other training with him first to establish trust. You could take him over a tarp, ask him to walk between 2 obstacles that are pretty narrow, like barrels, always forward and backward. You could start to teach him to tie, using an elastic rope like a bungee-rope. The Join-up you can save for a later date, when he's used to being handled and leading really well.
You want to build a realationship with your colt that lasts a lifetime, don't hurry, have fun!
Keep us posted!
Miriam

Hi Christy and Miriam,

Just to say that things are going much better between me and Tonto now! I am having a riding lesson on him each week, we have somewhere suitable to develope ground work skills and we are having a lot of good times. There seems so much to learn, I know there always will be, but i am just trying to enjoy the journey and not have a fixation on 'how much better things can or will be in the future'.

Tonto is much happier with company, I haven't done join up because I wish someone was local who could supervise me...I haven't started schooling with the dually (which I have) as I want to get the lessons more ingrained in my brain before I do the initial introduction, and the 6 imperatives are....loose! But we are having fun learning together.
All the best and good luck Christy, Claire

Hi Miriam and Joy
Thank you both very much for your comments, his name is 'Leo' and so far he has been taught to wait, go backwards, trot and walk on halter. Also anything new he sees I take him and introduce him to it. Last week was a giant yellow bag blowing in the wind, he decided was fun to chase. Currently we are riding a cycle in the field to adapt him to these as many of the children that use the stable ride cycles.
The biggest problem for Leo is the 'buddy' relationship he has developed with the older horse, but for now this isn't a problem and he can be left alone in the field, just not in a stable.
The older horse 'Obie' was a harness racer from Germany, so the biggest problem with him is getting him to canter! we have made great progress with this, but as soon as we go to a competition he reverts back.

My daughter is the rider, she attends our local equine college, but as I'm involved with them I like to learn as well. Monty's Online Uni is fantastic and everything I learn is passed on to my daughter.
I'll post under a different topic next time, to update the learning progress with Leo
Thanks

Miriam; I am so sorry I have not written here in so long. There isn´t always the time and there are so many good comments on the Forum....
Let me answer you, please.
Willow is now 3 1/2 years old. I am her herd. We have Argos, the dog, several cats and she lives in a stable where we ave our rabbits. I an very aware that she needs a four-leged friend close to her but for now we can´t get another horse or let her have a foal of her own nor donkeys (which is something we do want to do) but we are hoping to get a sheep, partly so that the sheep can eat what Willow doesn´t out in the field.
She does get bored so now that she is "older" I turn her out every single day even though it rains and even if it´s only for a couple hours, after all her winter coat is thick and warm. I do worry about drying her, though....
I agree that the Dually Halter is "The Tool" but here I find myself a little lonely...
One good thing is my husband finally saw Willow and I do a pretty good Join-Up and was favorably surprised at the degree of trust Willow showed towards me, even though she pretty much does what she wants. Shecontinues being ever so gentle, and fully knows when she can play arpund and when I need her to go easy. Our 4-legged friends certainly learn to understand our tones and very quickly. The way i say "easy girl" lets her know that I need her to go slow and let me lead her. And when we get to the stable door and I raise my finger and say."I go first" she waits for me to go in before following.
But... I don´t know where to start. As everyone else, I have to work: a couple of days in the city, I teach English privately as a foreign language,and a young neighbour turns Willow out into our field. We get home late, just time to turn her in and feed her - no grass in the fields now! Then the rest of the week I am in charge of our home, other animals and the prep for my classes which doens´t leave much time for regular training with Willow. So she lives a semi-wild life if you know what I mean.....And in a way I like it like that. The best compliment someone made of my mother (who was a remarkably special person) was that she was like a wild horse, gentle and friendly but untamed. (Both the person who said this and my mother were horse lovers). We live out in the middle of nowhere and there is no place (arena or other stables) where I can get professional help and I really feel inadequate. I know that although,she may get somewhat bored if she spends too long in her "room", Willow is a healthy happy creature, you can tell by looking at her. But I realise I have to do things with her and also that some of the things I have done were mistakes.... like feeding her by hand. She doesn´t bite but she does nip with her lips.
On Sundays I try to use the Dually and take her for short walks on the road, making run after me, stop or just lead and we do well but not well enough. But I know I shoukld be doing it every single day but....
Well, this is too long, sorry. i´ll get back to you next week. Thanks for your concern. The best to you
Christy

Hi Christy,
So good to read about Willow again!
Your relationship grew in the meantime, you seem to know your limitations, make the best out of the situation. Whatever work you can do with her is a good for her, be consequent and always ask for clear reactions on her side. Not knowing Willows breed, it's hard to say, what would be the right moment to start riding her, she might enjoy the preparation and the process. Keep her mind busy.
Looking forward to your post next week!
Miriam