I was not happy to the support reply to this as it was a question that was not read at all! ticket number 1649.
Hi
I'm confused and unhappy with this topic/video. The first topics and videos were teaching us that lunging was bad for the horse as it created an abnormal spinal and head allignment, therefore damaging ligaments and joints and spine. I accept that lunging a horse in this manor is bad for it and counter productive.
So that must mean advanced lead changes, counter canter is just as bad as you can see its unnatural.
Kinds regards
Graham Moore (England)
Graham,
A very good point. I expect that you are going to get a number of arguments for and against with this post. I must say that (and its just my personal opinion)I agree with you fully. Some exercises of course are so important to a horses development and should be used fairly regularly, such as "shoulder in". I find and see that most horses apply their own lead changes as they deem required and necessary and I never train counter canter as I do not see a benefit. I know, people will say its good for muscular development and challenges the horse to achieve "greater heights", which I agree with...its just that I do see your point, and ask the same question, what does it to physiologically?
Its kind of like being able to walk on your hands, (to me anyway). Its fun to do and shows great balance but doesn't look that good on one's resume when applying for the job of head dishwasher...does it? Not to mention wrist strain.
Unfortuantely I think the 'horse world' (except for us enlightened ones of course hahaha) forgets that in the same way not all people are built to undertake all moves, neither are horses. Some horses are athletic enough, and, if trained carefully and thoroughly, are able to undertake moves that are purely for aesthetic/talent purposes (but admittedly no 'real' function) just like some humans can bend double, run a marathon, or climb a mountain, or as you say Pul, walk on your hands! My concern is always that people assume that "if one horse can do it they can all do it" forgetting they are individuals with individual strengths and talents. It is a sad fact that even those who have the capability are rushed into this and are not supported enough to build up the required muscle strength, stamina and mental attitude to cope and suffer all the consequences as a result of this.
Vicci;
Right on, well said. I could not agree with you more. So many horses are simply asked to do things that their build, strengths and even their psychology will not allow them to do and are "forced" to, years too fast. And yet these trainers/owners just don't seem to "get it".
Then again, as Vicci points out, and, it is a very important question to ask, "Why am I training/making my horse do this?"
To what end? If it serves, "no real function", then why even bother.
Cheers.
Thanks for the comments, and what are those rosettes under your picture vicci?
The ribbons are indicate how many lessons have been completed here on the Uni. The number corresponds to the number of lessons.
Vicci, I could not have said that better myself. I agree completely, some horses are just better suited to do something or can do something that the next horse cannot or does not want to in any way. And to echo Paul's statement, what are we after in our relationship with a horse or horses? Are they simply a tool to bring us success or pleasure? Or are they our friends, companions, and part of one's family? Go look at your horse, look him or her right in the eye and ask them what they are to you. Only then will you have an honest answer, as a horse will tell you more about yourself than you even know.
thanks for the comments. My point is that it conflicts with the earlier video and reasoning that lunging in the traditional way is bad for the horse, I agree! Then this lesson advanced lead changes, counter canter produces the same effect as lunging (or worse). you would not ask a horse to do something so un-natural it could damage them. walk on your hands enough and it would cause issues, we are not designed for it. advanced lead changes, counter canter stood out to me as completely un- natural and counter productive (dis-ingenious). and the only time i'd look a horse in the eye is if I want it to go away! lol :-)
thanks for the comments
put it this way I feel so strongly that advanced lead changes, counter canter is wrong to teach, i'd like Monty to know as feedback for this uni. it conflicts with the principles and earlier training. Graham
Hi Graham
I've looked at my post again and realise it was incomplete and didn't reflect your point about lunging - apologies. Monty states that single line lunging is particularly bad at canter - at walk the damage is negligible, trot more so, canter definately a problem. The point I should have made is that, in my opinion, single line lunging at canter is always wrong/bad for the horses, however, in certain horses who are athletic enough, well trained, well supported and developed slowly enough there are occasions when - if you can fully justify/explain your reasons - it may be ok to ask the horse to perform ADVANCED moves like counter canter/lead changes etc. What usually happens is, as I have stated above, people try to introduce them too soon, to a horse thats not suited, and for no purpose "Just because we can doesn't mean we should". They are called Advanced moves for a reason. I think we have to be mindful of talking about the concept of what is "natural" (horses know how to lead change already :-) )- everything we do with horses is "unnatural", right through from the concept of even owning one to high end equestrian sports. Everything we do is compromising their "nature": on that basis we must always examine what we do with the goal of having the least impact possible on their nature, and most importantly, as others have said, WHY we do it.
vicci said it quite well, so maybe I am breaking in open doors here, but I would like to emphasize again that the movements as such are perfectly natural to any horse and "unnatural" is what happens when riders mess it up because of their ineptness.
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For example, counter canter is only that when the horse moves on a bent track (like corners) in the "wrong" lead. Lots of horses prefer to keep their strongest lead and will choose a counter canter over the "correct" lead out of their own volition when cantering freely in a field.
(BTW didn't Monty make those 180-turns at a counter canter to keep the horse balanced taking off after the turn?)
During a correct counter canter the rider is supposed to shape the bend toward the lead side in order so as not to cause physical damage.
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On the initial issue, my humble opinion is that Monty is very wise to include these lessons, because lots of riders are doing these things and this is his chance of showing them how to get it right.
g.h.moore, I know that this is off topic, and I am not trying to hijack this thread, but I can say that looking a horse in the eye does not necessarily mean to go away. I know that my horse, Beamer, will turn and look me in the eye, and he most definitely is not trying to send me away. I have found that it is often quite the opposite. It is a very important form of communication, and will show you things that you may at times overlook. It really is a window into the soul. I advise using it; you will learn a lot about not only your horse but about yourself.
vicci, Kicki, and the lost soul
Thanks, Vicci you have answered my confusion and Kicki I now get the point as with humans horses in the wild may choose to use their strongest lead. a bit like us being right and left handed but some times even when one side is more suited to a job, we use the other.
As for Monty being a very wise man, yes, but he also needs be challenged when we feel it is wrong or against the principles, contradictory to previous education. We are all learning, even Monty.
Graham
Totally agree Graham - we must never follow blindly without question :-)
I agree too, Graham! :)
Also, if questions never are asked, how are we supposed to get the answers?