Hi All,
A little background: Although starting a bit a late I'm very new to horses, I've been taking lessons for about two months, it seems to come to me quite naturally. A friend of the family has three horses, that with them both having full time jobs, do not get the kind of attention they'd like, that's where I come in. I have the opportunity to spend time with them, and one in particular that I have connected with. She has some behavioral, possibly past abuse issues that I won't get into here.
To set the scene:
I go to see the horses on Sunday, at her owners suggestion I take Twilight out and attampting longing her in the round pen. Having never done this before, I just followed her instruction. I had watched the join up videos just prior, but was not quite confident yet that I could pull it off, so I just proceeded with I guess what you'd call standard lunging.
I had her move out, walk, trot and canter mostly on vocal command. Changing directions was difficult. She'd stop and come in and I'd have to physically lead her to change but then once she did she was back on track. She was doing the chewing and at times she'd drop her head. But here's the thing. After some time doing this I stopped her, and turned my back to her almost to see what she'd do, and she walked right up to my right shoulder. Just like you see in the join-up videos. The question is, does that count as a join up? I ask, not because I want to start celebrating at my incredible instinctual horse training skills (kidding) but because I know that you're not supposed to do it too much, and I'm not sure if that counts as one. And because I'm not really sure where to go from here. AND because I guess I don't quite understand the difference between longing and join up, or rather, I don't know how the horse understands the difference when the actions are so similar. Any input welcome, thanks!
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Hi accidentalhorsewoman and welcome. While this seems not to be a classic join up, if you didn't ask the horse to you then she thinks that she can trust you. If I remember rightly, and I'm sure others will say if I'm wrong, Monty suggests that Join up should be achieved no more than 5/6 times. Join up is with no line between you and the horse in the area being used, lunging you have a line connected to the horse. Just out of interest did you disconnect the lunge line once she was at your shoulder, if it was safe to do so? This may be worth a try to see if she will follow you willingly as her choice to be with you. Does she do this with her owners?? Watch the lessons over and over, do the challenges to test yourself. Hope this helps, the rest of the gang here will offer help, advice and encouragement.
Hi accidentalhorsewoman and welcome. While this seems not to be a classic join up, if you didn't ask the horse to you then she thinks that she can trust you. If I remember rightly, and I'm sure others will say if I'm wrong, Monty suggests that Join up should be achieved no more than 5/6 times. Join up is with no line between you and the horse in the area being used, lunging you have a line connected to the horse. Just out of interest did you disconnect the lunge line once she was at your shoulder, if it was safe to do so? This may be worth a try to see if she will follow you willingly as her choice to be with you. Does she do this with her owners?? Watch the lessons over and over, do the challenges to test yourself. Hope this helps, the rest of the gang here will offer help, advice and encouragement.
Thanks Tiggy for the comment and thank you for the welcome.
No I didn't ask. She was still connected to the lead, but I didn't pull or call her in. I just turned around to see what she would do. Honestly I was so emotionally overwhelmed, in a good way, at the time, I don't think I asked her to follow me of lead after that. Before we started I did walk around with her a bit and stopped and changed direction and stopped and she was very respectful, she never tried to step ahead of me. We decided after that though that I could try to get on her and see how she'd do because the lunging went so well.
As we walked back to the barn to tack up, though on lead, she followed at my shoulder with slack in the line. We seemed to be off to a good start. I should give you some more background.
She's got some issues. Trust of people in general, aggression in her stall, she's a 19 year old Morgan broodmare. She's been with this lovely family for about 5 years, with them she's had one foal, who's now three and lives in the stall next to her. There is another mare and a pony
and had one more with them. She lives there with her "baby" now three, and another mare. In the barn she is very defensive, even agressive. When I walked in the first day, the week before, you could see she was very worried, but I talked to her quite a bit, and we brought her out of the stall. While in cross ties she relaxed a lot, I groomed her. Kissed her cheek, which impressed her owner immensely as she usually doesn't let people that near her face/head/neck. We bonded a bit. SO - I don't understand the stall aggression, and this could be a whole other forum discussion, but it helps explain I think the significance of her "maybe join up". Her owners have given her lots of love and security. Lesser people might have given her up, but they promised her a home. That said, she doesn't exhibit any aggression at all outside the stall, though she is a little "bratty" to work with. And her degree of difficulty combined with their tight schedules, they basically just let her be, and let her win.
Now, fast forward to yesterday. After the "maybe join up" I tacked her up and brought her back out to the round pen. She was maybe 50% cooperative and 50% trying to assert her independence. We would trot in a counter clockwise circle, I could not for the life of me get her to turn and full clockwise circle. I also had a very hard time keeping her on the rail. She would be doing a lot of side stepping and turning. Ever time she started acting out though, I would stop her with a "whoa" and pull back, and I'd make her back up, that was the only thing I could really get her to do every time (sometimes with more pressure than others) but I sort of used that as the reset. In the end I still couldn't get her to do the darn circle while I was on her, so I hopped off and jogged along side of her and made a few clockwise revolutions and ended on that note.
In all I feel really happy, encouraged, excited about this new relationship. I fell, even though she was not doing what I asked, I was never fearful, I was the picture of calm (an amazing personal realization) Yet now I'm frustrated. I am a problem solver for a living, it's just the way my brain works and I can't figure her out. I know I can't expect to in one exercise, but I'm without a clue. Is it the ring (lots of overgrowth just surrounding it) ? Is it me? If it's the ring then why did she do it when I was beside her (was it because I was between her and whatever could have been lurking outside the ring?) ETc etc, Anyhow, I know there are a I'm sure hundreds of factors contributing to her behavior, and most of which would be hard to assess without witnessing it it person.. But if anyone had any insight to impart,I'd be happy to hear it.
ALL of that said, I will keep watching the videos, and when I am confident in the steps I will attempt a proper join up.
Thanks!
Oh, and just to note, the stall aggression existed BEFORE she had the foal that lives there with them now. That would have been the easy answer.
Hi. Twilight sounds like a character. If you single line lunged her & that is her owners method then I suggest you both watch the videos about that on the Uni. Horses, like us, are either right or left handed (hooved?!) - they have a good side & a more difficult side. Each way should be worked equally to keep the muscles even otherwise the horse becomes one sided. At 19 I think Twilight has coping strategies rather than behavioural issues. You have about 14 years of unknown treatment, including her formative years, so everyone who handles her needs to be in agreement to keep calm, clear & consistent with her. The refusal to change direction with you aboard may be any number of things from an old injury to having been allowed to go just the one way - because the handler/rider didn't know any better. I'd try gently encouraging her. What if someone sat on her but she followed a 2nd person? Has she ever been truly separated from her now 3 year old youngster? The fact that her 'baby' is in such close contact still & hasn't been displaced by another foal might be adding to her unrest in the stall. Lots of thoughts. Rome wasn't built in a day but I'm confident, if you study the Uni you'll unlock many, if not all, of Twilights secrets. Good luck. Cheers, Jo.
I agree with Jo, you don't know what sort of handling she's had before! For her to show any kind of acceptance/trust on a first meeting is probably a big thing for her. My dearly beloved has a way with animals and they usually love him after a few minutes, some people have it naturally more than others, some just never get it!! How aggressive is she in the stable? I found with my young mare she was aggressive when we initially got her home, unless she was being skipped out or fed, I would do some advance and retreat, leaving before she got bored and aggressive towards me, it took a while but she got lots better and she was only 4 at the time.
With the circling try having her walk around the pen with you inside her level with the saddle, one hand holding the reins, you can then encourage her forwards if she stops. If you are good at jogging you can up it into trot when you're both comfortable. This worked for me with the young mare, when she wouldn't go out without help.
If the owners are willing ask them to watch the lessons with you so you're all on the same page with Twilight, some issues will take longer than others but slow is fast.
Have fun and stay safe.
Good timing...Monty's question and answer session this week is quite apt. It says ........
:
I have a question. I watch a lot of horse videos, also from other horse trainers. Some of them, when working in the round pen, want their horses to turn in the other direction with their head turning inwards saying that it is impolite for a horse to turn their hindquarters to you. I noticed with Join-Up you don't mind if a horse does that. Is it impolite for a horse to do so or not?
Regards,
Patricia
Answer:
At the time that one is sending the horse away, it should be desired of the handler to control the direction of flight as much as possible. Sending the horse's head away from you is the act of controlling the horse's direction. Backing off to allow the horse to turn toward you is allowing the horse to control the flight direction. As long as the handler is pushing the horse away, it is best for the horse to flee the handler throughout the turns.
When the horse turns away from you, he needs to let you come through his "blind spot," which is a small section in his vision field behind him. So going through this procedure and finding no harm in it, is further trust-building. Once the handler goes passive, then the horse is given freedom of choice. When the handler is ready to invite the horse to come to him, and desires that the horse turns toward him, the horse can advance closer to the handler.
The act of fleeing is the natural way for the flight animal to move away. Study my books and videos to learn that your eyes on the horse's eyes is sending away. When you turn your horse to go the other direction, you are turning by sending away at the eye so the horse should not come to you. Study closely my recommendations for the driving positions your body needs to be in to clearly communicate this.
Trainers who use a single line to lunge horses always pull inward to turn so as not to wrap their horses in the line. This traditional form of long lining has created the obvious pattern of making inward turns the routine. There are many reasons I recommend double line lunging, not the least of which is for a healthier anatomy. When you initially train your horse to turn away from you when changing directions, it will add consistency when you go to the double long lines and it is necessary to turn outward.
Thank you for your input it's all very helpful. They've had her for about 4 years, the aggressive stall behavior existed before she foaled Cahir, who lives in the stall next to her. I was thinking maybe moving her a stall away from him might be helpful, but would that make it worse? Would it make her more frustrated? She's also still lactating even though he's three and has been weaned for quite some time . The only evidence that I have personally seen of the aggression was the first day, after grooming her and returning her to her stall, when I stood near the stall she pushed her snout towards me and ears back. But if you walk up to her stall halter up she puts her head out for it. Twilight is a Lippitt Morgan, and at one time apparently very well trained and would do anything asked of her. I should add, that in after some time of not being able to get her to do this cw circle her owner got on her and did it with mild success. So she definitely has it in her. I will ask her though about being left or right handed, and whether there's a history of injury. All of that would be helpful.
I have a wedding to go to this weekend so I won't see her until next weekend. In the meantime I will keep studying the join-up video so I can try it with her when next we meet, and then see how she does with this problematic direction. I'll post an update, and thanks again!!!
I'm not a foal/Mum expert by any means; others will know far more than I do but it if she is still lactating he must still be feeding?!! which is not good really...I think I'd be inclined to seperate them/rearrange them....two mares together and her foal might be a bit irritatingm it's difficult to know without seeing them.
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I would also focus more on the relationships with humans and other horses and her disquiet at the moment and less on the "doing" . Once this bit is right you are more likely to get co-operation in the "doing" part of her training. Keep us posted, would love to know how she is getting on.
No lactating after 3 years is not normal. Separating them is the best idea.