Hi Linda,
I'm wondering how long have you owned the pony?
Are you new to the UNI and Monty's method?
And finally, have you done join-up before?
Answering these questions will help us to help you.
If you are new then I suggest you look at the video's on join-up several times, this will build your confidence in yourself and when you attempt to do join-up again you will know how to handle it when the pony runs toward you.
Please be very careful, OK.
Once these questions are answered you'll have lots of good advice, I promise.
Ronda

Linda
One other question is how big is your round pen?

Cheers

Hi Ronda and Dennis.
Long story, I will try and keep it as short as possible.
My 10 year old daughter had been having lessons for a couple of years on and off. She really enjoyed them. My husband and I decided to get a pony and move it to a small yard where a friend of mine had her horse who has lots of experience and we were told we would get all the help we wanted. 10 mths ago, We bought this pony and were told he was a 1 st pony for a child, he was nothing of the sort. turns out when the dentist saw him he was only 5 and very very green. Not so good considering I was very green too!! I stared taking the advice of my friend on the yard but quickly realised I did not like her methods, although I knew nothing about horses( at the time) something did not sit right with me, or my daughter. I was told to put a flash nose band on, my daughter was told to use a whip, hit him harder when he is not behaving!! about one month after having Zebedee I came across Monty, wow was I impressed, totally hooked. I tried to tell my friend all about monty and although she had heard of him she just didnt get it, and it was hard for me to try and explain to someone with 20 years experience who just looked at me as though I was mad. I felt I was getting looked at as if to say what the heck do you know!!! well I stuck to my guns, took the flash off threw away the stick and found another instructor, who is going to restart this pony for me, westrn style. We live in scotland, but my daughter wants to do western riding, it all just makes sense. I joined Monty's uni 7 months ago and have watched numerous join ups. I went to see Monty and Kelly Marks at the start of Oct at Gleneagles, oh so fantastic. my husband put together a 50 foot round pen in the yard. we put the gate where it was supposed to be I took around the pen 1st inroducing him to it at the different points, I released him at 2 o clock all the right things, but what happened was he kept stopping to eat the grass, he ran around a little bit but I gave up. I decided this was useless. Zeb was also getting bullied in the field by another gelding and we were biginning to have trouble getting him out of the field, he started napping, and when spooked he would take off with me daughter. It had begun to get dangerous and my daughter has been afraid to ride him, but she will not part with him. Any way 10 days ago we changed yards. Zeb is in a field now with 12 other geldings and all seems well, there is lots of horses around in other fields and lots going on. I have been taking him out on a lead rope just walking him and if my daughter has been on him it is with a long lead rope. I decided to try join up at our new yard yesterday , thats the join up I had posted about, there was no grass at this round pen, but the gate is at the opposite side from where it should be and I cant move it. I still walked him around and did everything I was supposed to and he did take off but as I said he kept running righe across in front of me, and to be honest I was getting a bit scared as I thought he was considering knocking me over. I got him to go around another couple of times then just stopped, turned my body at an angle and waited and he came to me and followed me aroung the pen. I took him out and we took him into the school and my daughter got on him and we did just some walk, trot and halt and stand. wee bit back up. he was on a long line thou as I still dont trust him, and thankfully he was as a bird came out of nowhere and he went from a walk into a gallop and my daughter threw herself off as she was so scared he would bolt. he has done that before and didnt stop. he did yesterday though, dont know if it was because I pulled him or because my daughter fell off, he just stood next to us all calm. My daughter pulled herself together and got back on and we walked around the school a couple of times then called it a day. Im sorry this has gone on soooo long but best explain it all. We can catch him in the field no probs, he comes to us and lets us put the dually on and we can lead him, only at this new yard. he seems happier. in my heart I do think I have bitten off more than I can chew but I dont want to give up on the wee guy, we all love him. he is an Irish cob type pony 13'2.
your thoughts would be appreciated.
Many thanks
Linda

Linda
Thanks for all the information. First thing that occurred to me was perhaps the round pen is too large, but after reading that the pony is 13+ hands I think that the problem may be that you are not staying in his shoulder area and driving in him forward. It is easy to loose your position when the pony is going at a good clip. Also I would continue to throw the lead line at his rear giving him more reason to keep going and be away from you. The first part of join up you need to be real calm and confident and at the same time aggressive in your demands. He must not come off the rail until he really is giving you all the indicators that he has accepted you as the leader. Watch Monty a few more times. Just watch the same video over and over so that you pick up all his body movements.

I know that you can do this once you gain your own confidence. The second part is a little more complicated. Your pony is not trained to really accept a rider, and while it sounds like he is a sweet pony, when he doesn't want a rider on him he just gets rid of them. He does not understand that he cannot do that. I would start riding the pony in the round pen once you have achieved a couple of good join ups. I would not have your daughter ride him until she also get a good join up. Given the fact that your daughter is 10 I would try doing a dual join up were she is controlling the pony going around the pen with you just behind her, but she should give the body and verbal commands. Once the pony have give you the sign that he wants to do a join up, have your just your daughter do the join up and follow up. You can coach her through the process so that her equus language is clear to the pony.
Riding in the round pen will allow you and your daughter to start correcting the pony without distraction and with out him being able to bolt. Be calm and patient and don't give up. You can make your pony in to a good and safe pony

Cheers

Well said Dennis,
There is not much more I could add to this great advice.
Again keep safe, both of you, Ok.
Ronda

Thank you so much for your advice, I will let you know how it goes. just one more question, what are the chances of my pony wanting to charge at me and knock me over? I had a feeling he was thinking about it, but I could be totally wrong? Thanks again

Linda,
It's difficult to say for sure if your pony will charge or not without seeing the two of you together.
Where are his ears when you are thinking he might do this?
Where is his head position?
Are his front legs spread at all and his hind legs, how are they?
Is his tail swishing back and forth?
Are his nostrils flared at all?
Watch his body language and if you can't read horse body language yet, do some research on, Signs of a Horse Charging.
These are just a few to watch for.
Often just before a horse will charge their heads will go into a snake-like position, down and pointed forward.
They will take a firm stance with their legs spread and feet firmly planted, as if to build their adrenlin.
Their ears will go straight back and close to their heads.
And when a horse is agitated they will swish their tails back and forth.
It may sound funny but some horses flare their nostrils when angry as if they are sucking in air for courage and they can turn their heads slightly to one side and show the white of their eyes.
Mostly they do all of this because they are afraid, they feel threatened and lack confidence.
Trust is a hard thing for horses, has he been harmed by any humans in his life?
It's difficult to do join-up with a horse you fear, it will feed off this. Knowledge is a great thing and the more reasearch you are able to do the more knowledge you will attain.
I hope this helps you in some way,
Ronda

Linda
Ronda has given some great indicators of an angry horse. My feeling from what you have said is that your pony is not an angry horse , but rather he may just be testing you and wanting to come to you a little to fast. In any case If you feel that he is about to come at you raise your arms and shoo him away as aggressively as possible. I have only had one horse charge me and it was not fun. He did not respond to raised arms or being held at. I tried to figure out what was going on and unfortunately the end result after six months was the horse was mentally unstable. He had never been weaned from his mother and when he came to me for training and very late weaning ( he was five at the time) he just could not take it and mentally broke down. He unfortunately had to be put down as he was really dangerous.
So if your pony had an aggression problem seek professional help and get it taken care of so you can have a good pony.

Cheers

THankyou Ronda ans Denis, I have to be honest and say I will pay more attention to what he is doing the next time, I was paying too much attention to what I was doing and where he was in the round pen. There is a girl who is Monty trained here in Scotland not far from where I live so I will get her to come and help out. and if ever there was atime I needed Monty's methods it is now!!
I have to tell you what has just happened about a couple of hours ago, I am soo upset.
I dropped my daughter off at school and went straight to the new yard we are at we have just been there for 10 days, fresh start, you know, no one telling us what to do!! yeh right!! I walked up to zebedee put his dually on no probs, walked him out the field, a wee bit resistant at times but worked the dually as I am supposed to. walking him up the track towards the yard he kept stopping, so I just pulled on the dually and released it the instant he moved, in saying that he did this a few times, then I noticed the yard owner coming up on her horse, a stallion.Im thinking maybe thats why he was stopping. Next thing she jusmps of her horse and says " I need to show you how to lead a horse, you are doing it all wrong, he is waliking all over you" she took zeb marched him forward in an agressive manner and whacked him over the face whith her whip, and she wondered why he was trying to get away from her, the harder she tried to control him the harder he resisted until eventually he broke away and ran off, by this time I'm in tears thinking what the heck just happened here, everything was fine. when I got him back, I just kept hold of him and he was fine, I was told that he was not a childs pony, ( which I know) but he is probably a rigg and he has no respect or manners and I should get rid of him, but no one would probably buy him he would just go to the meat market. You can imagine how upset I am. He was doing nothing wrong and this all stemed from someone showing violence towards him. granted I know what they mean, zeb will do so much that we want him to do, but if he really gets fed up or doesnt want to do it he wont, but beating the **** out of him is not my way of doing things. when I got him to the tie up bit to groom him he was an angel, then another woman came over and started telling me things I could be doing with himeto bring him on. so she started marching him about the yard and stopping him by holding a stick in front of him and then walking on then stopping him with the stcik, she never hit him, but he was afraid of the stick I think, then he took of dragging her across the yard, then she had to let go and of he went galloping back towards his herd. he kept stopping but every time we got near him he took of again until eventually I caught him. I just took him back to the yard again and just groomed him and kept calm . then every one went away. I took him back to is field walking and stopping him making him wait then moving on and he did every thing he was told. Do you think there is something everyone else can see in him that I am blind to? they also seem to think he is the boss in the herd and annoys the other horses, I have never seen that once if anything he tries to get them to groom him and he will groom them, he did that with his herd in the other field. I'm so sad.
thanks LInda

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions...
I am really sorry you and Zeb had to experience this!
I'm sure the people trying to help you out had good intentions in mind, but didn't know any better than violence or forcing their will on a horse that clearly doesn't understand or is trusting enough to listen. No wonder he took off!
.
My guess is that what they see in him is a horse that is willful, stubborn and potentially dangerous - because he doesn't respond to them like they think he should. In part they are right - esp. if he is treated like they treated him. As a comparision, we could say that a Chinese tourist won't understand English better if you scream it - or beat him over the head with a dictionary.;)
.
Sounds to me like Zeb has at least some trust in you, and I hope you can keep the other people away from him before he does hurt someone in sheer desperation and turns into a truly remedial horse. And that you get hold of that Monty trained girl ASAP!
.
As for his behaviour in the flock it is impossible for me to have an opinion without watching the horses interact. If you have plenty of time one day, do sit down and watch them for a couple of hours. It's amazing what you can learn from watching flock dynamics!
If I were to guess I would say he hasn't found his place in the flock yet but is still trying to get accepted. He sounds like a horse that is ranked high socially, and so he probably tries to get in as high as he can in the hierarchy.
Is there any chance of keeping him and just one or two other horses that he seems to get along with in a field of their own until things have settled?
.
I wish you tons of luck with him. STAY SAFE!

Kicki Thanks so much, I really do think they were trying to help and they do think he is willful and stubborn . I want him to work with me because he wants to, whats wrong with that! I dont want to beat him into submission, thats not what I'm about. I am just going to have to say thankyou for your help but no thanks. I have just emailed Lucy the Monty trainer so hopefully she can help. I will keep you posted, thankyou once again.
Linda

Linda,
I had a feeling there was violence areound him somewhere and I'm gald you saw this for yourself.
Now I know you want to be kind but the horse belongs to you and you have every right to tell people to stay away from your horse.
You can build his trust, with patience and love.
I've been there, My Star was rescued from a abusive situation, two years ago. She was a wild thing for sure but now after all the care and trust that has been shown her she is a changed girl.
You are going to find people will not agree with you about how you treat your horse, so what, it's not their business in any way.
When you watch the training videos that Monty has just recently posted on leading a horse properly you will see him instructing the fellow to be firm but fair.
Please watch these, OK. You were doing fine until someone interferred, don't let them.
Some people need to be knocked over the head to listen, doing it Monty's way will be the proof in the pudding.
Kicki is right, new horses have to find their place in the herd, if they accept low man on the todem-pole they will not be happy if their nature is assertive.
By being at the lowest pecking order, they get to have everything last and this can be emotional for an assertive horse.
If possible get out of there and find another place, with new horses that are gentle and kind, where he will fit in and you have a stabe that listens and respects the owner wishes.
I'm happy you are getting help from Lucy, she will support you and that will be a confidence builder for you.
You can do this!!!!
Ronda

Hi Kicki,
I read your story and it reminded me so much of my own horse that I had to write something. It's great that you are taking so much time and trouble to make sure your horse gets the right treatment. Don't give up. Your horse will thank you for the effort one day :)
My horse was also originally billed as a child's pony but was gelded late and by the time I met him had become quite pushy and overbearing. The result was that children could not ride him or control him when they lead him. He was destined for the dog food factory until he was rescued by a kind woman and eventually ended up with me.
In my experience the most important thing to remember when working with these kinds of horses is not to get your own adrenaline up. The more confident you are in your method the more clearly and firmly you can communicate your requests to the horse. I think it is a wonderful idea to get the monty roberts girl out to see and work with your horse. Just having someone with lots of experience showing one how to do things can increase one's confidence a lot!
Unfortunately there are many people who use violence to force horses to do things. Just because they have more experience than you doesn't make them right. Perhaps you could work with your horse far away from the other people on your yard or at a different time?
Good luck with your pony! We are all behind you :D

Thank you to everyone, it feels really good that I can come on here and I get so much support. It makes me feel like I am not alone and that I can do this. I will let u know how it all goes. Thank you

Linda
Outrageous. I don't think any of those people were trying to help you, but were trying to boost their own ego. As far as the owner is concerned you may want to confront her and tell her never never to touch your pony again. And if she hits him one more time you will turn her in to animal protection. Anyone that has been around horses a for any length of time know that you never hit a horse in the face. It is super cruel and can make the horse more aggressive, trying to protect themselves. I have always maintained that horse people are a strange bunch (company accepted of course) They are more interested in how they look than how to make their horse a better animal.
I was announcing a horse show a few weeks ago and one of our club members came off her horse in the practice arena. She got up and started in on the pour horse. I told her that he did not throw her, she fell off and she should be mad at herself not the horse.
Stopped her dead in her tracks!
I know that being a beginner can put you at a disadvantage around more experienced people, but remember that your horse looks at you as their leader and protector. Don't let anyone handle your horse unless you ASK them to.
Good luck and keep doing what you are doing.

Cheers

Dennis, thanks. I have been very upset today as I can't believe what happened. I was in shock, I am angry at myself for not standing up to that person. I am going to speak to her and say that he is my pony and I am doing this my way and that I don't believe there is ever any need for violence . I have only been on that yard for 10 days, I wanted to make a fresh start doing things my way. Zebedee is stubborn but I know from past experiences watching other so called experienced people he reacts badly to Harsh aggressive treatment. I have never treated him that way . I know it will take time, but what's the rush, he is only 6. Thanks once again, I feel so supported by all your encouraging and supporting comments
Linda

Oh Linda - this has made me feel so sad and frustrated for both you and Zebedee and I totally agree with all the advise you have been given. It seems that you have a number of aggressive, dominant type horse people in your current yard who like to take control. I think Dennis is very right. There is no way anyone should take over your horse unless you request them to help you and if you do ask for help choose very carefully as there are too many idiots around. Given I have broken my Tricka in myself I have had to learn to stand up for myself and her as I am continually given advice by well meaning "experts". Most of this advice indicates that I should be more aggressive with her -I was even told the other day that if I didn't get more aggressive l should send her out to an expert who would!! Great and have my very well behaved baby brutalised like her mother, Pie! No thanks! She has been swishing her tail a bit lately and looking uncomfortable and a bit cranky when in canter but little wonder. Earlier this week I found out from a dentist that her teeth were really sharp and causing her huge pain and then to-day I found out from a horse physio that she did really hurt her back when she tipped over on her saddle and has been in excessive pain while I have been riding her ever since - almost 8 weeks. So much for the first advice I had from "Natural Horse Healer" just after her accident! The physio was amazed that she tolerated me on her back at all and said that she must have an extremely high pain threshold. So be like me - politiely tell those well meaning aggressive type horsey people to leave you and your horse alone! Do hope your Monty trainer can come to your aid soon. All horses react badly to aggressive behaviour but particularly those that have been aggressively handled in the past as they have already learnt to fight back - I believe this is the case with Zeb. It takes a lot of patience to win back the trust of these horses. It can be done but only if they can be kept away from aggressive people. Just one bad experience such as Zed had with the yard owner will really set them back as it renews all those past bad experiences. If there is any chance that you can change yards I would do that as soon as possible. It sounds as if the current situation will now be uncomfortable for both you and Zeb. It would also be so much better if he could be kept in a smaller herd - ideally just one or two other horses. It sounds as if he is having a tough time sorting out where he belongs in the current herd and he is a smaller fellow. So yes to agree with others and summarise -
1. have the Monty trainer help you and watch her try join up with Zeb. She will probably need to be more forceful in terms of sending him away and preventing him from cutting across near her- if she is successful then you can be to.
2. spend as much time as you can in the round pen with Zeb practicing with the dually (maybe watch Monty's videos again first) walking with him, disciplining him for incorrect behaviour, making him back up etc.,
3. politely tell anyone who you feel may be aggressive to keep their distance from your pony,
4. try to change yards if you possibly can,
5. try to reduce the herd size Zeb has - this will reduce the number of other people that may have contact with him too in your absence.

However if his behaviour does not improve in a couple of months then do think about selling him as your daughter's safety and yours are paramount and some horses are just too damaged to repair for a young rider. If this is the case remember that the time and love you give him should help him in the future - I know the sell decision is a tough one but a necessary one if lives are at risk. Take care, good luck and keep us posted.

Hi Maggie,, sorry its taken me so long to rely to your comment. Thank you for all your advice, I appreciate it. Lucy the Monty girl is coming to see zeb on 13th nov so really looking forward to that. We just need to get the bolting with my daughter sorted out every time he spooks, and Lucy thinks she can help. I am going to consider changing yards even though I have only been there 2 weeks!! He was settling in nicely to his new herd, and when I went down yesterday he had been moved to another field with new herd members along with 2 ponies from his herd. But my fear is how was he treated as I know some times he can be a wee bit stubborn coming out of the field but he always does come out. I am building trust with him, I know it, he trusts me even when he is scared. He can be scared and cheeky, not nasty. I have had his teeth done and do get them done every 6 months, and I am going to get his back checked agin just to be sure. apparently this yard owner mover the horses around all the time, I'm wondering what people think about this, she mixes up the herds too. thanks again Maggie, and I hope your horse gets better soon.
Linda

Linda
Sounds like you have a great plan on how to get Zeb to behave like the good horse he can be. I am not surprised that your horse was moved into a new herd. I think their reasoning is they don't want the horses to become herd bound. Don't know if that is the reason or not but it does help to prevent horse from being either too dominated by other horses or dominating other horses. I know it is expensive but you might consider getting Zeb a stall with an attached paddock. He might feel safer and be easier to handle and train. Just a thought

Cheers

Oh that's interesting Dennis, so moving the horses around quite a lot is actually a positive thing. All the other horses seem ok with it so I think it will be good for zeb. Would being herd bound be a reason for him previously napping?

Oh meant to say, he hates stables! I tried to put him
In one about 10 months ago and he went crazy! He was really scared. In time I will try again thou as it what would happen if he had an injury or something he may need to be stabled! Will keep u informed . Thanx

Linda
I have my horse in a three sided shelter with a large paddock so he can go in or out as he chooses. He sleeps inside at night because he has a nice bed of shavings, but during the day he is out watching everything that is going on. He was in a stable for eight years and was only turned out in a round pen by himself. He is a stallion so he does not play well! Since he has been in the three sided shelter he a very happy horse. You could also just leave the door to the stable open so he would have the freedom to move outside. If he is happier and more cooperitive in a pasture, by all means leave him there.

Cheers