I've been following MR for awhile and I've always had a question. I'm finally putting myself out there so I can have an answer. During the join-up process if the horse is moving forward showing no signs of resistance, why do we continue to put forward pressure on it? My understanding has always been that when a horse is giving you what you want you remove the pressure. Positive input would be greatly appreciated. Thank yoU!
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Hi gansens
Welcome to the Uni and the forum, even if you've been around for a while!
Regarding your question about pressure during Join-Up: It's not training you're doing,
but using the natural flight-instinc of the horse. The flight distance for most horses would
be about 4 or 5 laps in both directions of the roundpen. Only when this natural distance has been covered, you will see the 4 signs of communication we're looking for. The word communication is essential here. The horse is a reactive animal and will communicate in his own silent body language.
You're absolutely right to take away pressure as soon as the horse gives what you're asking for.
But in Join-Up we need the flight distance to be in place before communication can begin.
Hope this answers your question, please keep in touch with the forum!
Miriam
I agree with Miriam; it is important to make the distinction between training and Join Up. Join Up is a process of establishing a relationship between you and the horse that shows that you are trying to speak his language and he in turn communicates back to you. When we use pressure/release in training it is a more structured format that is about overcoming resistance to a request to do something specific. It's about like "Policy and procedures" - the policy (Join UP) sets out the framework and then the procedures are the 'please do it this way'.
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I remember some time ago asking Monty a similar question and I was worried about asking it for fear of seeming foolish but I genuinely could not understand why we 'send a horse away' (as a lead mare would when a horse has /misbehaved') from us in the round pen when the horse has done nothing wrong. That's when it clicked for me - it's about the establishing a shared language and 'pressure' is part of that language and we use it in many settings.
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I feel you were right to ask the question, it is a very good one and it really made me think :-)
We recently acquired an older mare who seems to be fairly well trained. I wanted to do a join up with her to establish trust since we are new to her. She seemed to genuinely dislike having to run the round pen, and kept looking at me as if to say "why are you doing this to me?", and she would keep slowing down and looking my way. I continued to press her, but she never really showed any of the signs (giving me her ear, lowering of the head, licking and chewing) and didn't come to me afterwards until I had stood there for several minutes. Is it necessary to use Join Up with a horse that has already learned to trust people and is not spooky?
Hi Teddid - there may be many reasons for her behaviour during Join Up; as an older mare she will have a long history and may have been exposed to lots of different 'methods'. Some horses are very well bonded to us very quickly and it is a judgement call based on your assessment of whether you two need to establish the shared language. If you feel it is already there then Join-Up is not compulsory but I would say that it is desirable more often than it is not.
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It's difficult to know what was happening in your particular circumstance without seeing the event and having more detail. For instance, how long did you work her; how many times round in each direction did she go etc. etc. I can offer some thoughts though....
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The behaviour you describe suggests it may be more to do with your positioning; if you get too far forward i.e. not at 45 degrees to her you will 'stop her down' and prevent her going forward (it's surprisingly easy to do this!). This will also confuse her and mean you won't get the signals.
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If she has been trained in a 'Parelli' style in the past, they teach horses to turn INWARDS not away from us. I can offer more explanation for this if you feel it would be useful but won't rabbit on in case it's not relevant :-)
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How long have you had her? What is your relationship like with her on a day to day basis?
Hi Gansens,
The comments from above from the team are correct, what I'll add in is that when the 4 signs are given from the horse, then the pressure is taken away. It's not the sending away and them moving away that is the request, it is that I wish to become your leader, will you join with me.
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Teddid, good to have you join in. There are several things a horse could be saying to you when they look at you, it's how they present their head that is the real question. If it was dislike for what you were doing the facial expression will be different to what do you want me to do, yet the head movement can be similar. As Vicci said being an older mare she will have experienced many things, so I'd recommend find out what does she know. Many older horses I've worked with do not require join up and just walking in hand with them will give you an idea how they will respond with you and if they understand you wish to be their leader for something, be it riding, lunging or in hand work.
Mel
x
Thank you everyone. Your answers made sense and I now see the "point." Teddid, I share your experience. I have a 30 yr old gelding that loves people. He is always stopping to ask "Is this the right answer? Is this what you want me to do?" It doesn't take much for him to join-up with anyone. I always reward him with a rub on the head. After 30 yrs he "gets" the human/equine language. But, I also have a mini that is just downright lazy. He hates round-pen work and it confuses him. He is always stopping to come-in, but I don't think its because he wants to join-up, I think its because he really doesn't want to run.
Hi gansens; it may be that the round pen is just too big for a mini :-) Bewing rather short legged myself I have some sympathy!! There's nothing more irritating that walking with someone whose legs are 6/8 inches longer than mine and I have to walk twice as fast to keep up. Toddlers being dragged along with their arms at full stretch...I wish I could find a 10 foot human who could walk the parents in the same way so they could see what it feels like hahahaha. Ok, end of rant....but you get my point I'm sure :-))
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At the end of the day, if it's not suiting him and your relationship is good then let it be.
Mel x ;)